Is marketing truly everything?

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Cybernetic pig
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Cybernetic pig »

DevAnj wrote:neither of them have promised procedurally generated space worlds.
Yes they did. Read again.
I would not call Duke Nukem Forever "successful" since these days for a videogame to be considered successful by its publishers it has to meet sales expectations.
:facepalm:

If a universally slammed bad game can turn in a profit, that means quality doesn't matter nearly as much as it should. That clearly hints to marketing being at the forefront.
The thing is, the way it was presented Revision never appeared to be just a "level redesign" mod, they made a big deal about improving on the visceral core and adding brand new aesthetic direction to their levels, and as such images of reimagined, stylized versions of Deus Ex levels that were somewhat bland before caught the eye of many a fan.
They did deliver that, sort of, aside from some levels that are barely touched and dispute over whether things are actually improved. A "remake" is still a batshit crazy stretch for people to jump to from rearranged and expanded levels (not even remade levels), but nonetheless some people did.
GMDX's promise on the other hand is rather ambigious and doesn't give much of a hook to catch onto. "Improving all aspects of design"? What does that mean? It just outright says that it "improves everything", and any mod that redoes the gameplay and more substantially can make such a blanket statement. You need to be more direct, need to give something more specific to the people.
Yes, DevAnj the dumbass has the solution. Actually, the description is pretty specific, and the website is very specific. If anything I need to be more "smoke and mirrors". But frankly I don't care at this point. Fans will carry it and I don't have marketing savvy, nor the willingness to try beyond current efforts.
Your list of games doesn't actually refute anything, since most of those are unreleased games or in Early Access
Uh, NMS was unreleased when its hype was at the tipping point :roll:

Arguing with you is extremely foolish.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bogie
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Bogie »

Ok, why the hell are we bringing in NMS and Duke Nukem Forever? I understand this is about marketing, but here's my idea for an approach to make GMDX more popular.

1. Describe GMDX not as "The definitive Deus Ex experience", but as "A new Deus Ex experience" as some people might prefer the old game cheesiness or challenge over GMDX's improvements and difficulty tweaks (Which makes the game either too easy or hard for people, or too different from the experience they initially expect).
2. Spread out info about the mod to places like the Steam community. Alot of people looking for mods don't really look in the right place (Like ModDB), so spreading it out will hopefully make it more popular.

These are, of course, just my thoughts. I can understand if you don't agree with some of these. Also, on the topic of GMDX, Could you setup a GitHub for it? (That would be useful for anyone wishing to mod GMDX to it's full extent, once it's released of course)
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Bogie wrote:Ok, why the hell are we bringing in NMS and Duke Nukem Forever? I understand this is about marketing, but here's my idea for an approach to make GMDX more popular.
Hey now, NMS and DNF's marketing are on topic. Planning to make GMDX more popular is not.

But sure:
1. Describe GMDX not as "The definitive Deus Ex experience", but as "A new Deus Ex experience" as some people might prefer the old game cheesiness or challenge over GMDX's improvements and difficulty tweaks (Which makes the game either too easy or hard for people, or too different from the experience they initially expect).
That's not my descriptor, it's the fans. While OTP may have largely ignored the mod until recently, elsewhere it's been a great success and has been called the "definitive Deus Ex experience", "default way to play Deus Ex today" time and time again. And that's what it aims to be; a refinement and advancement of the game. A logical progression following in the footsteps of what the Immersive Sim used to be, once upon a time. I'm a unique candidate for that for having studied the classic Looking Glass/Ion Storm way and being a big game design obsessive.
2. Spread out info about the mod to places like the Steam community. Alot of people looking for mods don't really look in the right place (Like ModDB), so spreading it out will hopefully make it more popular.
It's already doing that on its own. Slowly but surely. Although there's some misconceptions there still by the looks of things. I wish people would acknowledge that it only makes the game harder if you want it to be by choosing the appropriate difficulty option. I didn't work on expansive player options for nothing.

I've never presented the mod on steam. Like I said, I'm not going to extreme lengths to market the mod. If you want to influence the steam portion of the fanbase (probably the largest), be my guest. I'd appreciate it, and Deus Ex deserves to have one of its better mods (if not the best ;)) be known. But I'm not going out of my way. I should be working on Deus Ex, not marketing.
Also, on the topic of GMDX, Could you setup a GitHub for it? (That would be useful for anyone wishing to mod GMDX to it's full extent, once it's released of course)
Yeah, perhaps.
Which makes the game either too easy or hard for people
Where are you getting this? It's whatever the player wants it to be, providing they choose the right difficulty option for them. Easier than Deus Ex was? As difficult as Deus Ex was? Harder? It caters to a wider variety of players.

Fuck it, I'm tired of this misconception so I'm going to detail changes on the new game screen.
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Bogie
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Bogie »

Sorry, I should've done more research beforehand.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Yeah, I've gone to considerable efforts to cater to a wider variety of players than DX originally handled. Even work for the more casual player by for example addressing a much criticized aspect of the game: the accuracy system is more forgiving on easy difficulty. The crosshairs tighten much faster. I'm not too happy with that compromise as I think the accuracy system is exceptional but it's exclusive to easy difficulty and only those that actually *want* it to be easy are going to pick that option, so they should be catered to.

Loot counts, the amount of ammo received, the behavior of the AI in stealth and combat, how much damage environmental hazards and explosions do, how loud weapons are, whether medbots are infinite use or not, the existence (or not) of additional challenges like select enemies and wall mines, it all scales based on difficulty.

Also in version 9.0 there's even more options. Five new game difficulty select modes in total, and more menu screen difficulty-related options.

I won't go as far to add objective markers or anything like that though, optional or not. That's defiling the game plain and simple.
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Github is cancer.

Post by Bird »

Bogie wrote:Also, on the topic of GMDX, Could you setup a GitHub for it? (That would be useful for anyone wishing to mod GMDX to it's full extent, once it's released of course)
Cybernetic pig wrote:Yeah, perhaps.
Anything, but Github. Pretty please!
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Bogie
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Bogie »

So just host it online and link at the moddb page I guess.
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Jonas
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Jonas »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Middle tier indie dev. [...] frustrating, but livable. See: Logic Artists.
I fully agree with your assessment.

On a side note, for a very recent example of how marketing doesn't always overshadow game quality, the RPG The Dwarves and the Commandos-with-ninjas RTS Shadow Tactics released very nearly simultaneously last week. The Dwarves had a ton of PR and marketing, and Shadow Tactics had basically none. The Dwarves' Metacritic rating is 68, and Shadow Tactics is 83, and the former has sold very poorly so far while the latter has sold really well.

So you do need quality. But usually marketing can make up for a poor game, if you do it well enough.
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Cybernetic pig
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jonas wrote:I fully agree with your assessment.
That's sad to hear. A part of me had hoped I was being overly negative about the situation.
Bird wrote:Anything, but Github. Pretty please!
Yeah, I can agree with that. I've only spent a little time on there in the past but I didn't like aspects of it.
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Re: Github is cancer.

Post by Mortecha »

Bird wrote:
Bogie wrote:Also, on the topic of GMDX, Could you setup a GitHub for it? (That would be useful for anyone wishing to mod GMDX to it's full extent, once it's released of course)
Cybernetic pig wrote:Yeah, perhaps.
Anything, but Github. Pretty please!
I used to hate Git and GitHub due to that fact I was so unfamiliar with it, and it's concepts so abstract. I was however forced into learning it because that's what the company I worked for at the time used it. And I can safely say it's THE most important concept to learn for anything software development. Plus in case you didn't know, Linus Torvalds developed it so it is good for you.

Today I host all my code on git repos, and would recommend you do the same. Any reluctance to do so is just your reluctance to learn a new source control paradigm which is also the most superior, robust and secure. It also shows a lack of understanding about how it works therefore opening up the belief that "Git is flawed/too hard/irrelevant", and that you are better off using something else. Which I find insanely perplexing.

Now the above sounded harsh, and it was meant to be. Do yourselves a favor and learn it! It is good for you, despite the foul taste at first. Also don't skimp on details and use a GUI (that is cheating).., go and use the CLI....
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Bird
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Re: Github is cancer.

Post by Bird »

My hatred is towards github, not git. That is why I keep my stuff @BitBucket.
Mortecha
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Re: Github is cancer.

Post by Mortecha »

Bird wrote:My hatred is towards github, not git. That is why I keep my stuff @BitBucket.
Ahh goodXD

I like and use both. I store all my crap on BB. On the most basic level, the only difference I find is that BB earns a profit through collaboration on private repositories with over 5 devs, and GitHub makes a profit through repo privatisation, but only the creator really needs to pay for membership as invited devs who fork it can access it for free.

The answer would be to use both (starting with BB) but at different times and scales, say if you've got more than 5 devs working on a given repo.

If you're a student, you get free access to GitHub premium for 12 months post academic authentication.
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DevAnj
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by DevAnj »

Cybernetic pig wrote: Yes they did. Read again.
They didn't. Atleast not to the degree of No Man's Sky.

In any case, this debate has run its course. It's clear that you don't know how to handle an argument and you need to resort to personal attacks and be aggressive all the time. You're ignoring the points I'm trying to make to repeat your viewpoints filled with passive aggression. Oh well, take care.

To summarize this debate, yes marketing is a big part of success. Yes, marketing can cover up the flaws of a product to an extent. But marketing is not everything. Daikatana is proof of that, so is Minecraft and Jonas' examples.
That's not my descriptor, it's the fans. While OTP may have largely ignored the mod until recently, elsewhere it's been a great success and has been called the "definitive Deus Ex experience", "default way to play Deus Ex today" time and time again.
Also, this is utter bullshit. While it has been liked by most people, only one review features each of those phrases. Cybernetic pig just adopted them because he thought they fit his mod and were catchy. Don't believe me? Ctrl+F those phrases or words from those phrases here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/reviews#reviewsbrowse .
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Cybernetic pig
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Cybernetic pig »

You just couldn't let it be, could you? Leave me the fuck alone. I've asked you to leave me be multiple times, on multiple forums.

And of course you include your usual outlandish retarded claims so I am forced to respond to your malicious stalking garbage. :roll:
You have a history of harassing modders, including DX ones. It would not be difficult to get you banned.
Also, this is utter bullshit. While it has been liked by most people, only one review features each of those phrases. Cybernetic pig just adopted them because he thought they fit his mod and were catchy. Don't believe me? Ctrl+F those phrases or words from those phrases here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/reviews#reviewsbrowse .
It's been given those specific labels, and other just as significant ones multiple times from multiple users web-wide at a quantity even I didn't expect, despite striving to be definitive. And at least three on OTP have echoed the statements despite the forum being late to catch on. The feedback has been so overwhelmingly and consistently positive that I've no idea why you'd try to slander it. Oh wait, I do: because I'm no longer putting up with your creepy, obsessive, harassing behavior.

And yes, marketing is not literally everything between success and failure, it's clearly a somewhat exaggerated statement and other factors have already been acknowledged, back immediately after you posed the question. It's just so overwhelmingly "everything" that only fools challenge it.
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Re: Is marketing truly everything?

Post by Mortecha »

DevAnj wrote:Made in relation to a discussion on the GMDX thread about marketing.

Cybernetic pig claimed that Deus Ex had shit marketing but was still remembered for its quality. I disputed this, saying that before release it had gathered decent hype and was featured on several gaming magazines. Then he responded by saying that because of its lack of marketing budget, it didn't sell as well as Doom or Half Life, and that good marketing alone sells. He gave the examples of No Man's Sky and cigarettes as evidence of this.

The discussion went on for a while, but since it's occupying significant space on the GMDX thread, it would be better to bring it into a new one. I also request the moderators to move all posts related to it from the GMDX thread here. Anyhow, discuss whether marketing really is everything, or do other factors play a role. I'm of the opinion that marketing does have a huge impact but it's still limited and a lot still falls down to how interesting the product itself is relative to the market offerings of the time and reputation, among other things.
This seems like a pointless argument/crusade. Don't you have more important things to do DevAnj?
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