The CyberP vs me fighting thread

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DevAnj
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The CyberP vs me fighting thread

Post by DevAnj »

There's a question I've been pondering for a while. In most RPG/RPG styled games, you gain XP of some sort as you progress through the game, which is then used to build up character stats/powers. Now most of them grant XP for plowing through a certain number of enemies. These gains are "automated" in a way, since they're not granted necessarily for progression as much as they are for performing certain actions you're likely to do in the game. Games like the original Deus Ex do give XP, but only for progression, exploration, and sometimes finishing sidequests. XP gains are essentially more "gated" here.

I'm probably biased, but in general I prefer the latter system since I think it's easier to gate the player's progress of power in that and balance the challenges faced accordingly. The former can be exploited in, say, games with respawning enemies and also tends to favor certain playstyles over others. Even so, I've seen that most RPGs/RPG like games adopt this system, and I would like to know why.

So my question is twofold: Which system do you prefer, and are there any legitimate benefits to having the "automated" system? I'm not trying to diss either system, I'm just curious.
Last edited by DevAnj on Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Cybernetic pig »

C'mon, you've seen me discuss this 100 times. :roll:
Even so, I've seen that most RPGs/RPG like games adopt this system, and I would like to know why.
My opinion:

Shit design. Failure to ponder the "gated" method is better for most, but not all RPG archetypes.

It's tradition. It dates right back to D&D tabletop.

Insta-gratification. At least that's why I think it's present in tons of modern games that are barely RPGs. "HEADSHOT! 20xp!" Pop-ups providing the illusion that things are more exciting than they really are.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by DevAnj »

Cybernetic pig wrote:C'mon, you've seen me discuss this 100 times. :roll:
I didn't. I've only seen you promote the "gated" system over the automated one.

I know there's a lot of bad blood between us, but let's not try to spoil another thread with bickering, ok?

As for your reasons, I think they're valid. The best reason laid there is the one of "tradition", i.e RPG developers are so used to earning XP for kills and generic actions that they don't try other alternatives. Especially since the AAA space is largely risk averse these days.

My personal view is that it's also more convenient for most designers to leave the leveling to the player rather than dole out XP at specific points and for specific actions. Resource placement is a tricky part of game design, and having to gate XP and dole it out only for specific instances adds more such work for the designer.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Cybernetic pig »

You call your admittance of year-long harassment and my threats of legal action "bad blood"?

OTP is pretty much my safe space from your more obsessive-malicious side now. You actually give me some space to breathe here. Oh sorry, and another site you know I'm active on but know illegal behavior will not be tolerated.

It's funny, I Watched "What about Bob?" last night starring Bill Murray. It's about a psych patient (Bob) that just will not leave his doctor alone and causing him much frustration, eventually resulting in the doctor himself going crazy. Difference is "Bob" only had innocent intentions and didn't know what he was doing due to his condition. Luckily this is the internet and I can disconnect when I need to though, not that that makes this OK.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by DevAnj »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Oh sorry, and another site you know I'm active on but know illegal behavior will not be tolerated.
More like because I have no interest in the game mostly discussed there, i.e Underworld Ascendant. You don't have any strong legal case anyway, so your threats make no difference to me.

Anyway, I had said I don't want another thread spoiled by bickering, and yet you decided to throw tantrums here, again.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Your admittance of the act is a reasonably strong case, DevAnj. Your behavior is just not extremely shocking. It's mild harassment. But harassment nonetheless.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by DevAnj »

I have not admitted to anything. The fact that I disagree with you on multiple forums is not proof of "stalking". Nor is the fact that I don't post much (that's because there's not much interesting happening in the forums I happen to go to. That or the topics discussed are not something I feel like I can contribute anything to). Anyway, didn't I tell that I don't want bickering here?
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Cybernetic pig »

1. Invasions of privacy and attempts to embarrass and shame me. e.g digging up six year old drama here on otp and posting it publicly elsewhere.
2. Harassment. If I post, you're always there, often ranting inane shit at me, no matter the topic. I can't provide fucking bug reports on other people's mods without you turning up ranting stupid shit at me. Somewhat tolerable at first, but over time it wears on you, and lately it has turned into direct attacks as well as the behavior described in #1. This is the biggest issue. It's not acceptable behavior at all to fixate on someone so obsessively.
3. The little passive-aggressive things. Like constant abuse of a forums' rating system, and now slander attempts.
4. Playing innocent/master manipulator. You're not displaying this behavior here and are attempting to fly under the radar, but you've harassed other DX modders before so that shit won't fly.

What's worrisome is that it's escalating. First you were just a fan, then it was harassment, now it's the attacks.
Where do you draw the line, Dev_Anj?
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Jonas »

Does the PM system not work anymore? I'm not sure I see the point in having this fight in public.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Cybernetic pig »

It's all been public, on multiple websites where he harasses me.

I'm calling him out in public to apply public pressure. So people, like admins, are aware of what's going on and people can say "look Dev_Anj, what you're doing is wrong. CP has asked you to stop multiple times so just keep your distance", but I guess you think the above is a trivial matter? Yes it's mild offences, but try dealing with it for a year.

I don't want to take this to PM, I want to be left alone. Asking him to stop or confronting him via PM will not do anything since I've asked him in public to stop multiple times already, that shouldn't be difficult to understand.

And yes, I came and instigated the bickering with him without direct provocation in this topic, that's a first and it's 'cause I've had enough.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Well, it's not exactly true there's no provocation involved, as the OP is basically something I've said in the past nearly word for word that he's posting as his own unique insights. Another really small thing, but it all builds up, just as it did in What About Bob? while everyone was oblivious as to what was going on.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by DevAnj »

Cybernetic pig wrote:1. Invasions of privacy and attempts to embarrass and shame me. e.g digging up six year old drama here on otp and posting it publicly elsewhere.
2. Harassment. If I post, you're always there, often ranting inane shit at me, no matter the topic. I can't provide fucking bug reports on other people's mods without you turning up ranting stupid shit at me. Somewhat tolerable at first, but over time it wears on you, and lately it has turned into direct attacks as well as the behavior described in #1. This is the biggest issue. It's not acceptable behavior at all to fixate on someone so obsessively.
3. The little passive-aggressive things. Like constant abuse of a forums' rating system, and now slander attempts.
4. Playing innocent/master manipulator. You're not displaying this behavior here and are attempting to fly under the radar, but you've harassed other DX modders before so that shit won't fly.
1. I only started doing that once I got completely pissed with you. And even then, I only posted little quotes that I felt described your behavior accurately for the situation you were in, I didn't specifically state which forums they were from. Hardly a violation of privacy.
2. Have you ever considered, that maybe, maybe, I happen to have an interest in the topics you happen to post in? I certainly haven't meddled in Ultima Underworld/Underworld Ascendant threads since I have no interest in those games, but I do have interest in Thief, System Shock, etc. and so I do notice your posts there. Given that I tend to disagree strongly with your behavior and how strongly you tend to word your views, no wonder I end up disagreeing with you publicly there.
3. Seriously? Rating other people's posts based on how I feel is not abuse, it's just using the system as it's supposed to be.
4. I've not played innocent, I just don't see my behavior to be as over the top as you're making it out to be. As for "harassing" other DX modders, I've only had strong disagreements with the modders of Revision, which turned into big drama when they started calling me names. I don't go out of my way to insult modders.

So you don't have any proof again, you're just making a bunch of assumptions.
Cybernetic pig wrote:Well, it's not exactly true there's no provocation involved, as the OP is basically something I've said in the past nearly word for word that he's posting as his own unique insights. Another really small thing, but it all builds up, just as it did in What About Bob? while everyone was oblivious as to what was going on.
Err.. no. Those are the thoughts I came up by myself. Seriously, can't two people come up with similar thoughts and opinions? For instance, I share many of your thoughts on Deus Ex.

Jonas, feel free to delete this posts and all posts related to this digression. It contributes nothing and it's clogging up my thread.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Jonas »

Cybernetic pig wrote:I'm calling him out in public to apply public pressure. So people, like admins, are aware of what's going on and people can say "look Dev_Anj, what you're doing is wrong. CP has asked you to stop multiple times so just keep your distance", but I guess you think the above is a trivial matter? Yes it's mild offences, but try dealing with it for a year.
I honestly couldn't say. As you yourself have pointed out, he's been behaving pretty well here, I haven't been following your feud across any other boards where it may have been worse. I don't have the whole picture.
I don't want to take this to PM, I want to be left alone. Asking him to stop or confronting him via PM will not do anything since I've asked him in public to stop multiple times already, that shouldn't be difficult to understand.
Well again, I can't do anything about the other forums, but if you visit DevAnj's profile and then click on Add Foe all his posts will be hidden from you from then on. That should give you some peace to work.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Jonas wrote: Well again, I can't do anything about the other forums, but if you visit DevAnj's profile and then click on Add Foe all his posts will be hidden from you from then on. That should give you some peace to work.
Providing that a) blocking him doesn't cause him to escalate and try something drastic, and b) he's not causing trouble or making accusations about me that I'm unaware of and therefore cannot defend. But I'll give it a go here as he seems to behave.

Edit: one more attempt to communicate the problem, then I'll begin block test.
DevAnj wrote: 1. I only started doing that once I got completely pissed with you. And even then, I only posted little quotes that I felt described your behavior accurately for the situation you were in, I didn't specifically state which forums they were from. Hardly a violation of privacy.
You've even publicly listed all forums I frequent. This was about a year ago and you were less invested in me then. I sent you a PM saying "This is wrong, please remove it" to which you did, but the PM remains. You don't seem to understand there are boundaries.
2. Have you ever considered, that maybe, maybe, I happen to have an interest in the topics you happen to post in? I certainly haven't meddled in Ultima Underworld/Underworld Ascendant threads since I have no interest in those games, but I do have interest in Thief, System Shock, etc. and so I do notice your posts there. Given that I tend to disagree strongly with your behavior and how strongly you tend to word your views, no wonder I end up disagreeing with you publicly there.
I know we have similar interests. Because of my modding work is why you even began following me to begin with, as a fan. However, your posting activity on some boards revolves almost entirely around me. It's all public DevAnj and you've admitted to the harassment and said "You'll tone it down from now on", but have yet to do that.
Err.. no. Those are the thoughts I came up by myself. Seriously, can't two people come up with similar thoughts and opinions? For instance, I share many of your thoughts on Deus Ex.
Dude, just no. This is not your first repost of my insights on game design, and much of it is rewritten almost word for word. Normally I wouldn't care, sharing knowledge and opinions is good, I'm just not very happy with you at the moment.
4. I've not played innocent, I just don't see my behavior to be as over the top as you're making it out to be.
Over the top nonetheless. No, I'm not fearing for my life or anything, your harassment is only mildly disturbing (I've been through worse in this life) and I'm fairly confident you won't escalate further, although you never know. You've just crossed a number of clear boundaries so please tone it down.
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Re: Level systems: Automated vs. Gated

Post by Jaedar »

How about you two get a room (or train tickets)?
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