Would you rather exist or not exist?

[Epifols]

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[gamer0004]

A god makes moral choices valid. If no gods exist (and I don't think they do) -> no good or bad -> whatever you do, it doesn't matter (because it's all the same: nothing (neither good or bad or neutral or whatever)).

Bullshit. As I've pointed out, IT MATTERS TO US.

Your argument is basically a polemic for the factual existence of god. If we take as read that god doesn't exist (for the sake of argument, Gelo ), we are STILL left with moral choices BECAUSE WE FUCKING INVENTED THEM.

It doesn't matter why you feel something is moral or not, we've selected, over millions of years, for humans who share a deep-rooted sense of kinship with other humans. We have mirror neurons, ffs: neurons entirely devoted to firing "as if we were doing/feeling/experiencing something" when we see someone else doing/feeling/experiencing it. Empathy has a fucking genetic component.

You can justify your feelings of right and wrong by citing god, or not. Or both (I am good because I wish to be, and because that is what god likes) or whatever.


As far as humans are concerned (and I hope we are all humans, here), every life matters, and good and evil are solid concepts. Just because all these things cease to have any relevance outside of a human (or perhaps, sentient) frame of reference, they are no less valid and no less important. Because we're human. We can't be 'inhuman' or anything else, so things automatically matter.

Again, it doesn't matter that something matters to you. Because what makes you important? What makes anything important? There is no NEED for the universe to exist, or for mankind to exist. We live because we want to live. And we want to live because those who don't aren't very "fit". There is no NEED for people to be happy (again, happy people will live longer and have more kids (probably) which is why we want to be happy).
Life only matters to us because we have elolved to think it matters (else humans would've died out).
It completely depends on YOUR morals. There are probably some people who think "it would be best if all humans would just die so the animals can live one undisturbed". And that's not wrong. It's not right either.

That's the point of a god. If you have a god, you have a clear set of criterions which validate your own morals. Without a god, there is no "good" or "evil", because who decides what is good?
You? And if I disagree, would that mean you're somehow more important? And what about all the other people here on earth? You'd have to be the most important living being -> a god.

I and you, we're just very small people on a big planet in a huge solar system in an enormous milky way in a fucking huge universe. We have no way to influence anything. We just care about ourselves because we ARE like that. But what does it REALLY MATTER whether you're succesful or not? It matters to YOU, to some people in your surroundings, but there is no reason why you and they are IMPORTANT. You aren't. This universe isn't. Because there is no need for it to exist.
If you say there is, then you should be a very, very depressed person. Because what about all those persons who were never born because not all people get as many kids as is technically possible? If they had been born they're suddenly all important and they suddenly matter? But then it matters whether they are born or not. And it doesn't, not even to you.

[chris the cynic]

Again, it doesn't matter that something matters to you.

Yes it does. What matters matters by virtue of it mattering.

It really is that simple. If something matters then it matters.

[Magnas]

On the subject of the topic: I'd rather exist. I'd have more appreciation for non-existence if I, at one point, existed. I wouldn't appreciate it while I didn't exist, but I'd appreciate it while I did!

On the subject of God/Religion/morality: There is no good or evil, just as there isn't always a right or wrong. The existence of God wouldn't make morality constant. It would make the punishments constant. That doesn't make something inherently right or wrong/good or evil. Morality should be flexible and judged by the situation, not the book.

The Judeo-Christian God himself changed his mind constantly, anyway, the prick.

"Thou shalt not kill. Unless some dude loves another due. Then kill that fag with a stone."
"Thou shalt not kill. Unless she didn't scream loud enough while being raped. Kill that whore, she was obviously asking for it."
"I LOVE YOU ALL. Except for you, you, you, you, and you. You're all going to burn in Hell for a trillion and a half years because you didn't believe in me for the last 100 years."

EDIT: Hah. Just realized how funny it is to be talking about religion and morality when my avatar is of the Anti-Christ. Nice.

[chris the cynic]

Worth remembering that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a translation by the same people who screwed up translating much of the rest of th Bible. I have been told by people who speak a certain language that I do not that "Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder," would have been a better translation. Which means that your first two mind changes aren't actually mind changes. Examples of being a total ass perhaps, but not examples of God changing his mind. (Execution != murder if done in accordance with the law, the same is true of killing in wars.)

Now the break between the Old and New Testaments, that's another matter entirely.

That said, even within a single Testament it isn't hard to find God changing his mind. See Abraham haggling with God over Sodom, for example.

[DDL]

EDIT: Hah. Just realized how funny it is to be talking about religion and morality when my avatar is of the Anti-Christ. Nice.

I can't help but think that the antichrist would be more subtle than that.

I mean, you're hardly going to be led astray by a dude that looks like that, are you?

[Jcelios]

"Thou shalt not kill. Unless she didn't scream loud enough while being raped. Kill that whore, she was obviously asking for it."

I believe the original reasoning behind that was having to do with being raped specifically in a city.
Obviously if you live in close proximity to other people you'd be able to scream if you we're ever in danger of being raped and they would come and help you.
The reasoning continues that, if you were raped in a city, you are probably lying about it being rape.

[Jonas]

I can't help but think that the antichrist would be more subtle than that.

At least it's more likely than Marilyn fucking Manson.

[Magnas]

Hm, I do see the justifications in the city-rape. I think Chris is right, it's more a sign that Yahweh's an jerk. But it just goes to prove that morals as given by God are a long-shot from God's Perfect Benign Word...

And I do remember it being 'thou shalt not commit murder.' Which is funny when you consider that God himself gave the command to raid cities and kill everyone inside for worshiping the wrong Gods. Sure, it may be justified to the Israelites and their God, but it's still murder.

Also: my avatar is the Anti-Christ in the Something Wicked saga by the band Iced Earth. It's a horror/sci-fi story which tells of humanity invading Earth in 10000BC and destroying most of the indigenous Setian race. The surviving Setians wipe humanity's mind as told in their prophecy and then keeping them in check until their saviour is born. Then he's born and it takes over from his point of view. So, he's their saviour, but he represents the Anti-Christ of revelation.

/off-topic

EDIT: Forgot to mention that he can shape-shift, so he doesn't always look like that.

[chris the cynic]

"Thou shalt not kill. Unless she didn't scream loud enough while being raped. Kill that whore, she was obviously asking for it."

I believe the original reasoning behind that was having to do with being raped specifically in a city.
Obviously if you live in close proximity to other people you'd be able to scream if you we're ever in danger of being raped and they would come and help you.
The reasoning continues that, if you were raped in a city, you are probably lying about it being rape.

Which is why women who were raped outside of a city are exempt.

[Added:]
New post I see. The thing about murder is that it is a very narrow slice of the giant field that is killing people. Self defense, execution, warfare, other things that probably exist but don't come to mind, none of these things qualify as murder. So you go out and kill an entire city and their livestock along with your army, totally not murder. Good old fashioned war. Hit a random person over the head with a rock on the way home from your latest wartime genocide, murder (assuming they died of course.)

[Added:] Killing a would be murderer before they can kill someone who is not yourself. A form of killing that is neither murder nor one of the three things I already listed. See, there are other things.

[Magnas]

"Thou shalt not kill. Unless she didn't scream loud enough while being raped. Kill that whore, she was obviously asking for it."

I believe the original reasoning behind that was having to do with being raped specifically in a city.
Obviously if you live in close proximity to other people you'd be able to scream if you we're ever in danger of being raped and they would come and help you.
The reasoning continues that, if you were raped in a city, you are probably lying about it being rape.

Which is why women who were raped outside of a city are exempt.

[Added:]
New post I see. The thing about murder is that it is a very narrow slice of the giant field that is killing people. Self defense, execution, warfare, other things that probably exist but don't come to mind, none of these things qualify as murder. So you go out and kill an entire city and their livestock along with your army, totally not murder. Good old fashioned war. Hit a random person over the head with a rock on the way home from your latest wartime genocide, murder (assuming they died of course.)

[Added:] Killing a would be murderer before they can kill someone who is not yourself. A form of killing that is neither murder nor one of the three things I already listed. See, there are other things.

Exactly! It's too easy to get caught up in a number of moral loopholes if you define them without considering the circumstances. Sure, it can be sticky and it's not easy, but it shouldn't be. Looking for an easy way out just leads to more problems.

[Dead-eye]

I look to Deus Ex when I think about morals. Only you can defined what a moral is and only when it needs to be applied. Other then that is all just bullshit.

[teknikal]

I think the closest thing to feeling non-existance (besides death) is the part of sleep where you don't dream and have (seemingly) zero self-awareness of yourself (maybe you are self-aware in the moment but you forget, i dunno) but anyway, if thats the case non-existance sucks.

But then that's just meaning you are not longer aware you never existed, others know you exist. And unless yourself, no-one and nothing knows you exist then thats not really a state of non-existance.

Freaking hell I used exist-ish words way too much there

I'd rather exist. For all the crap times in life, it's worth it for the good times...



...like TNM

[Jonas]

TNM: Makes existence worth all the fuss.