Giant Gobs of Crazy and the EFCA

[justanotherfan]

I understand some of the crazy. I think some of it is well intentioned. I don't think there's any introspective examination of what they're actually doing and saying though. They'll say the plan will cut medicare and establish forced euthanasia because of a lack of funding, and in the same breath say that it'll cost too much, while ignoring the current situation. If they were thinking about what they were saying and doing, they'd just be laughing at eachother. Is the crazy having a big effect in the states now? Or are they just yelling?

[chris the cynic]

It is hard to gauge how much effect they're really having. They are certainly controlling the debate. I don't think they're convincing many people (I certainly hope they are not) but they are making it so the vast majority of what is addressed is the crazy stuff they bring up. The time spent explaining that, no, there will not be a death panel or a fascist takeover and that the inefficiencies removed from Medicare will not be sick old people is time that isn't spent addressing legitimate concerns.

A member of congress could vote on the bill however they want, but most of them are up for reelection next year. (A third of the Senate, all of the House.) If the phone calls and letters they're getting from their constituents are mostly against healthcare reform there's a good chance that will have an influence on their vote. Given that the crazy people are making it so that non-crazy people can only rarely get a word in edgewise, non-crazy people are not getting answers. So if they're against the bill, even if they are against it due to a misconception, they are likely to stay that way.

So, even though a lot of what they are doing is just yelling, that could have a very real effect.

They don't really need to change much, they just need to stall any attempt to set the record straight. There are other people, people with funding and the ability to convince non-crazy people of falsehoods, who have ad campaigns that can do the rest.

They are not just yelling though, they're also packing constituent meetings to make sure that, even without yelling, their questions are the ones that get asked and their comments are the ones that get heard. The crazy people are being directed to take steps to make it look like they have a majority when congress people come to see what is happening in person. A congressperson who lived in a majority crazy district would probably be wise to vote crazy.

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One of the things that I find absurd, even for crazy people, is the help they are accepting. What the fuck, crazy people? You are the ones who see ulterior motives and dark purposes everywhere and yet you assume that the strangers giving you instructions and material aid have your best interests in mind. Why? The only rationalization that I can think of is that conspiracy theorists look for hidden things so open manipulation might not set off their alarm bells, but I doubt that's it.

You are right, the contradictions are massive. On the one hand people say the government plan will be the most horrible thing ever to have existed that no one would ever choose. Yet the same person will say, often in the same breath, that it will be so wonderful everyone will flock to it and drive the private insurance companies out of business. Someone will say that government should have no involvement in healthcare whatsoever and then say that Medicare (a government healthcare system) should be left alone. At least one person actually said "Keep your government hands off my Medicare."

[Moonbo]

Ugh. You know, I've noticed a very bad habit where people find the crazies on the other side of the political spectrum from them, and then develop a triple hernia inveighing against their stupidity. I've also noticed that triple hernias are usually not developed as a result of finding the crazies on one's own side of the political spectrum.

Is it really worth blowing a gasket over this Chris? You'll be a lot more healthier and a lot less bitter if you focus on the reasonable people on both sides. There's plenty of more worthy things to get angry over.

-Gelo

[chris the cynic]

Ugh. You know, I've noticed a very bad habit where people find the crazies on the other side of the political spectrum from them, and then develop a triple hernia inveighing against their stupidity. I've also noticed that triple hernias are usually not developed as a result of finding the crazies on one's own side of the political spectrum.

Is it really worth blowing a gasket over this Chris? You'll be a lot more healthier and a lot less bitter if you focus on the reasonable people on both sides. There's plenty of more worthy things to get angry over.

-Gelo

I'm fairly sure all of my gaskets are intact. To be clear, I am not bothered by the crazies, I am bothered by the influence the crazies are wielding. The debate over issues should not be focused on what the crazies believe for the simple reason that they are the crazies. What they believe is crazy. They should be able to speak their minds, of course, but the debate about an important issue shouldn't revolve almost entirely around crazy people saying crazy things and sane people trying to point out such things are false.

As far as I am aware, no other crazy people in the United States, regardless of where they were located in the political spectrum, have ever had as much influence over political discussion as these people have now. If crazy people on my end of the spectrum had this much influence on the debate that would disturb me as well.

[Moonbo]

As far as I am aware, no other crazy people in the United States, regardless of where they were located in the political spectrum, have ever had as much influence over political discussion as these people have now.

. If you really believe that you'd better go down to a town hall meeting ASAP.

(No hard feelings Chris, I'll probably regret this post when I feel less grumpy )

[Jcelios]

It's too easy and oversimplified to just dismiss conspiracy theorists or even specifically birthers and deathers as crazy.
Because the vast majority of them aren't. And to label them crazy and not give the matter anymore thought it to not learn from their mistakes.
Their minds have fallen into a state of irrationality due to a strongly held belief. This is something none of us are immune too.
Once that belief has been established in our psyche and the need to believe it takes over... it's easy to rationalize away any threat to that belief. Intelligent, sane people can do this very well.

The only real cure is huge doses of and an education in Critical Thinking.
Even with that human irrationality is insidious and creeping around every corner.

[Moonbo]

I would also add that it's important to keep a good set of priorities; often people form opinions based on giving weight to various facts and perspectives and then doing their critical thinking based on that weighting. Reason and critical thinking by themselves are pretty worthless without working machinery to provide good inputs (ooh, sounding very Kantian today!).

-Gelo

[DDL]

Ugh. You know, I've noticed a very bad habit where people find the crazies on the other side of the political spectrum from them, and then develop a triple hernia inveighing against their stupidity. I've also noticed that triple hernias are usually not developed as a result of finding the crazies on one's own side of the political spectrum.

On the whole, you DO tend to get more lunatics on the far-right end of the spectrum than you do on the far-left, though.

This is compounded by the fact that it's considerably more difficult to be "dangerously crazy" about liberal issues ("RAAAAAAAH! IF YOU TRY TO NOT USE YOUR FREEDOM TO HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION TO ME, I'LL KILL YOU!!!!").

The "scary inbred redneck with a low IQ and a BIG GUN" is a stereotype, certainly. But like all stereotypes, there's a nugget of truth in it. Same for handwringing pinko liberals, but I know which one I'd prefer to be trapped in a lift with.

[Moonbo]

On the whole, you DO tend to get more lunatics on the far-right end of the spectrum than you do on the far-left, though.

Oh, I'm pretty sure people on the right hold the inverse opinion.

[Jcelios]

On the whole, you DO tend to get more lunatics on the far-right end of the spectrum than you do on the far-left, though.

I honestly don't know about that. The Right do tend to have the more traditional and aggressive (read: visible) crazy.
But the left have: 9/11 "Truth", PETA and Animal Liberation Front type animal rights people, wacky new agers, destructive guru cults, eco-terrorists, anti-GMO activists, entire anti-corporate movements disguised as environmentalism, code pink, eco-feminism, not to mention a general shrill paranoia about "big business" and "the man" etc. I could go on.

[DDL]

Then I would love for them to present some examples. Christ knows, fox news does its best to paint the worst possible pictures and IT STILL FAILS.

Also, I like the way I've been automatically stuffed into the left-wing crowd.

I'll have you know I'm actually a facist.

EDIT: Ok, those are actually good examples. I guess I am about as guilty as Moonbo suggests, since I actually mentally package anti-GMO activists and the like under "idiots" rather than "left-wing crazies". Or possibly it's like..they're so extreme they go right past the left-wing and end up on the right again.

Still, facism yay!

[Jaedar]

anti-GMO activists

Isn't that more conservative thing? I mean GMO is a liberal thing innit? Playing god and all that? (for the record, I fully endorse GMO, as I think it is necessary for the survival of the human race)

[Moonbo]

A good batch of radical environmentalists and naturalists (including some macrobiotics and vegans I know) think that GMO's are heinous abberations that will mess you (and humanity) up. I guess it has to do with messing with pristine nature?

[Jcelios]

I usually don't consider myself a very political person. I'm probably some strange combination of leaning liberal/libertarian (speaking of libertarians they have some "special" people also )
But I do spend a lot of time around crazy people.
So much that I've had to cut back due to my own degrading mental health.
Did you know that Charles Darwin invented atheism and caused the holocaust?
Did you know that you can communicate with alien beings on the planet Sirius using 20 plus hits of LSD? (and for the last time Sirius isn't a planet)

[Jaedar]

Did you know that Charles Darwin invented atheism and caused the holocaust?

did you know that Darwinism has nothing to do with darwin at all?
And GMO is necessary to feed the 6 billion people living right now. (that's why people starve)