DDL - read this

[Salk]

(I know this from myself, because I hate it to write about the stuff I am doing, even though it would take less than a minute to drop a line every once in a while.)

You hate it yourself but you still require that others do it?

We have been without updates for a very long time. Be content to read what DDL and Akerfeldt wrote in the latest couple of months, which is more than what we got in 4 years.

A release seems today as near as it never was so we'd better quit the naggin' lest we piss DDL and kiss HDTP goodbye.

[Jonas]

Trust me, it would take a lot more than nagging to piss off DDL, and even if you piss him off quite severely, I doubt that'll ever make him give up on HDTP.

[Lexx]

You hate it yourself but you still require that others do it?

I hate it, but I am doing it, because that's what people need every once in a while. Also I don't "require" that others do it. I just tried to show up why people begin to behave like idiots after a while. High expectations, the carving for the product and then the rebuff. That's not really rocket science to understand.

And about the website: Yeah, saw yesterday evening that the old HDTP stuff was on a different website. It used the same domain, so I thought it was somehow connected.

I am happy to see that HDTP is progressing well. Especially with the release of the hd textures and the recent DX:HR release, I am more than tensed to start a new DX1 run with everything all together.

[SyntaxError]

I agree that posting a small something to look at every once in a while would be certainly a nice thing. Thing is, projects like this create some expectations in the audience. While the modders have every right to ignore that, a few small treats will probably prevent the worst flamewars and don't require much work to do.

For some reason there are always people in such projects that are right at your throat for suggesting it, though.

[Salk]

You hate it yourself but you still require that others do it?

I hate it, but I am doing it, because that's what people need every once in a while. Also I don't "require" that others do it. I just tried to show up why people begin to behave like idiots after a while. High expectations, the carving for the product and then the rebuff. That's not really rocket science to understand.

I disagree. There is no need for updates, on the contrary of what you are saying. Updates are just a courtesy (very welcome, of course).

But if there was indeed a need, what would the lack of updates lead to? The non completion of the modification? The lack of visibility and thus nobody to download and use it?

My answer to the two questions above is a sound "no" but perhaps you meant something else with need? In that case, you are welcome to elaborate to prove your point.

I am happy to see that HDTP is progressing well. Especially with the release of the hd textures and the recent DX:HR release, I am more than tensed to start a new DX1 run with everything all together.

For one that has been without updates is a mystery how you can see that HDTP is progressing well.

[Lexx]

For one that has been without updates is a mystery how you can see that HDTP is progressing well.

Read the first page of this thread. Especially the bigger post from DDL gives some insight.

What I meaned with "need" is very simple: At some point, people are carving for updates, they *need* moar, they have a need. Need. Hope that was more clear now. Again, read what I wrote-- Nowhere did I wrote that a lack of public updates means the non-completition of a mod, but that the public will see it as that. Never did I wrote that because of this, nobody will download the mod when it's done and released. Besides, one shouldn't solely work on a mod or game just to get lots of downloads from it. Work should be done to create something cool, not to boost ego.

Not that this is the point of the thread now and I never intendet to go this deep into the topic... I don't wanted to teach, attest or blame anyone, it was just my thought about regular updates, dropped into the thread.

[Salk]

Read the first page of this thread. Especially the bigger post from DDL gives some insight.

Oh you mean the big post where DDL replies to my request for some answers? I guess you didn't think it was enough updating for you since one day after you felt the need to ask for screenshots?

Incidently I read every post of this thread with interest (including yours of course). What I have left in my mind is just DDL's words that you direct me to:

Myself, I figured popping in to quickly say "dude we're still doing shit" was enough, coz really: why would we lie?

I guess DDL himself thought that the sporadic, quick updates given here were enough. In short, that no more was needed.

What I meaned with "need" is very simple: At some point, people are carving for updates, they *need* moar, they have a need. Need.

I start to understand the meaning of the word "addiction" more than the word "need". But everyone is not the same. I am, like you, one that would love to read as many updates as possible because I am very interested and would love to be informed.

On the other hand, many modders themselves have told us that they'd rather work on the job being done than come here to post detailed updates. And as a modest modder myself, I can understand it. You spend hours working on something possibly very tedious and you don't really want to be reminded of that by going through it in the form of public updates. You just want to pull the plug.

I don't mean to write as if I was attacking you because I have been around this forum for many years, almost every day, just hoping to read news about both NV and HDTP. But now that it seems HDTP is around the corner and after the big post of DDL replying to all my questions (we are not related nor friends but he still took time to reply to me in a detailed, satisfactory fashion), I do feel we should just leave the guy alone and let him complete his non paid job.

[Lexx]

I am sorry, if my words aren't the quite correct ones. English isn't my main language and I still have problems with it here and there.

My posts about more or less regular updates was meaned more generally and not that the current ones haven't been enough. Still, a new screenshot or two would never be wrong. :>

On the other hand, many modders themselves have told us that they'd rather work on the job being done than come here to post detailed updates. And as a modest modder myself, I can understand it. You spend hours working on something possibly very tedious and you don't really want to be reminded of that by going through it in the form of public updates. You just want to pull the plug.

Except of the last part, I think the same way. But I also try to think about the poor souls who follow what I am doing, because with some projects, I feel exactly like them. :p (Black Mesa Source, where are you?) My personal rule since a few years is: Until you aren't sure that something is nearly done, write nothing about it and don't even tell people that you are working on it. Of course, this doesn't work always, but for me as a one-man-modding-dude, I don't have to find co-workers / helpers and I felt that this is motivating me the most. :> As soon as you announce something, people can get all hyped about it.

[simen]

You are all doing a great job. The only thing I miss is the ability to donate. Then complainers and unpatient people could donate some money. The day is only made out of 24 hours, we sleep 8, work 8, and then there is family and friends. Motivating youself to work for free is hard.

Nobody can demand ANYTHING of people doing stuff in their own sparetime for NO money! If you do then your are an asshole!

[SyntaxError]

Why is it that there's always such an amount of dramatizing?
The minute someone asks for some small update/screenshots/statement he's already a demanding asshole. On the other hand, some people really seem to feel entitled to get something and get it fast.
But is it demanding (as in "give it to me already, I'm entitled to it") if you only ask for some update about a project you are interested in?

Btw. donating some money is nice and all, but in that case, people could indeed "demand" to see some updates...

[DDL]

Correct, and more importantly, as soon as money in any form is involved, the mod gets into terrifying legal issues, as this is all after all totally and unarguably based on a game we don't own the rights to. As long as it's a totally free, volunteer-based mod then it's entirely A-Ok, but as soon as you accept cash you're effectively "charging for HDTP", which means you're profiting from ion-storm austin's IP (which is now, what, just eidos? O wait, now that's squeenix....) so yeah, if we were to accept donations (which incidentally is totally unnecessary anyway, but thanks nevertheless) we'd get sued to shit, probably. Or at the very least given a "cease and desist" or similar.

Modding: the minefield.

[Jonas]

OTP has accepted donations for ages and nothing has come of it. The donations are to keep the website and this board up and running, so it has nothing to do with modding Deus Ex. Problem solved.

[DDL]

Yeah, plus all that hard-earned cashola that got spent on jeremiah.

(totally worth it, btw)

But still: I'd massively prefer to keep it totally dissociated from all that shit.

In essence, people donating money to HDTP would make it progress at exactly the same rate. The only effect it would have would be to make us feel more pressured/annoyed/guilty.

[bobby 55]

Yeah, plus all that hard-earned cashola that got spent on jeremiah.

(totally worth it, btw)

But still: I'd massively prefer to keep it totally dissociated from all that shit.

In essence, people donating money to HDTP would make it progress at exactly the same rate. The only effect it would have would be to make us feel more pressured/annoyed/guilty.

After you guys are done, we'll have to have a Hall of Fame, for all those talented souls who've contributed to the betterment of Deus Ex. That should include programmers, artists, modders, and the like, who have contributed to improving and adding to Dues Ex. *dismounts from soapbox*

[Jonas]

Yeah, plus all that hard-earned cashola that got spent on jeremiah.

None of that came from the donations! We took the donations on the pretense that we needed to keep the site running, and in fact it doesn't cover our costs very well, Lawrence and I just split the difference. Jeremiah (actually Jeremiah's massively discounted studio rental and the work of his sound tech) was paid out of our own pockets, I covered about half of it and I think Lawrence, Gelo, and... Shane(?) all pitched in as well. I feel a little bad for not remembering who contributed funds towards paying Jeremiah. I also paid for my own train ticket to Hamburg of course, but I totally got to see Hamburg (a little bit), so that doesn't really count

(totally worth it, btw)

Totally.

Most of our donations came after we released, by the way, which just proves that people are more sensible with their money than they're often given credit for.