GMDX: v4. (HDTP Compatible)

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gamer0004
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Re: GMDX: Gameplay Mod. (HDTP Compatible)

Post by gamer0004 »

Double post
Last edited by gamer0004 on Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMDX: Gameplay Mod. (HDTP Compatible)

Post by gamer0004 »

Cybernetic pig wrote:The only one I'd consider changing is the bot rockets/cloaking as it contradicts with lore, yet these third world/commercial grade bots appear in Area51, most notably as the defenders of Helios of all things, so the devs contradicted their own details. (yes that's beside the point, I know).

The Tracing effect stays, it does a wonderful job. Not sure how it is any more "gamey" than the nano defense effect of the mechs/simons/commandos.
It serves a couple of purposes, and they are rather important ones.
I see no contradiction there, why wouldn't Page add in some cheap bots? Can't hurt.

Tracing effect in the original game was already not very subtle, but this is much much worse. But it's your call. Can I easily mod it out of the mod myself (almost any mod quickly leads to a modception in my experience)?
Cybernetic pig wrote: Runners: Immersion breaking, perhaps, but you are assuming. You are assuming they are running 24/7. Why not assume they are only running for 10 mins at a time? You can hang around and watch them to prove otherwise; indeed they do infinite loop, but at that point of watching that long the Superfreighter would have began heading back to Hong Kong, or the other "normal" patrolling guards would have gone for a shit and a coffee break, or JC would begin to need some food or a piss or fall asleep from the boredom, but none of this happens, we need to assume stuff happens to maintain immersion, assume all doesn't revolve around the player. Waiting around on any map in the game it becomes clear that all does revolve around the player because fuck all happens. you need to keep moving to maintain Immersion, therefore you will not see these runners for more than a few minutes at a time (they are very rare also, just so you know).
I did consider adding a break in their routine but this very thought above occurred to me. I may still add it though, because the more believability the better, I may have just been a little lazy with that.
Adding a break wouldn't really make a difference. I've never heard of anyone doing a patrolling running. After all, patrolling is something which is done 24/7 for years on end in some situations (e.g. guarding a military base) to protect against a possible threat. But in 99% of all patrolling situations, no incident occurs, and even in the 1% where it does, the probability of it happening in any specific half hour interval is microscopic. Nobody can be bothered to run for that eventuality. Furthermore, patrolling is about surveillance then literally running into someone, and you can keep much closer watch on one's surroundings when walking. Besides, these patrols are meant to take care of terrorists &c., not an augmented superagent. In the former case, running would not be necessary as terrorists would be caught regular patrols, in the latter case, it would be far more useful to place robots in strategic places than to have your men tire themselves needlessly. Running would also make guards less effective if such a superagent were to show up. Like you say, the game should not give you the impression that it all revolves around the player, so why add running guards which only make sense as a gameplay mechanic against our specific player character?
Flamethrower bots. Not quite pointless, they give more worth to the hazmat/environ skill, fire extinguishers and energy shield.
Furthermore, it's again something that the original devs did, I just gave it to all bots of that type. Load up NYC_Dockyard and check out the SecurityBot2's on that map, they have flamethrower.
However, I do respect your opinion that it is perhaps a little silly. Would bot manufacturers/designers 40 years from now include a flamethrower? Due to it's lack of range one would believe it to be inefficient, but the bot is programmed to only use it when in the appropriate range. I cannot say whether bots that shoot fire will be a thing, and whether that's bad sci-fi or not. Who knows what the future holds? Either way I think you are definitely being too picky with this one, especially since it was in the vanilla game.
Huh, didn't know that. Still, it may be sensible with balance in mind, but I consider immersion more important. In general though, flamethrowers are incredibly ineffective, hence why they're not used in armed forces anymore (I always considered Gunther's choice to be a quirky character thing). It certainly doesn't make sense on a commercially developed robot which presumably was probably designed by teams of engineers aiming to make it the most efficient killing machine. Flamethrowers only get in the way.
But yes, the commercial-grade bots having rockets is perhaps contradictory with lore, this is the most valid complaint. As for the "where are the rockets stored" question: where are MJ12 commando mini-rockets stored (and they have plenty, sit there for 10 mins with god mode and watch them if you like). Where does JC keep his arsenal?
It comes down to this: Necessary Immersion-breakers and unnecessary ones. All Immersive Sims have them. You are welcome to hold the opinion that those new features are unnecessary immersion breakers where the positives do not outweigh the negatives, or whether they should be considered immersion breakers at all.
If you continue to be bothered by them, I hope you at least have a good time with all the other aspects of the mod, and I'll strongly consider removing the rockets and cloaking of the bots, or only make late game appearances use them, such as those aforementioned ones at Helios' chamber :)
In practice though, you will rarely if ever be shot at for minutes by MJ12 commandos. That said, the commando suit (e.g. the wing-like arms) does seem to be designed for a multitude of weapons and ammunition (including, possibly, rockets). The small robots don't really look like they could fire rockets.

TBH, I am very picky with mods. I rarely play mods, as they often improve 50-80% of whatever it is they want to improve and ruin 20-30%, which simply isn't a trade-off I want to make. If it's a full conversion, changes are easier to swallow, but even so, I spent hours fixing the Third Age Total War mod which made some idiotic "hardcore" AI changes which mostly just made the AI cheat more openly, completely breaking immersion (it also added a game breaking bug, which only hours of roaming various forums revealed to me, although it is a know bug and can be easily fixed). I will give GMDX a go once its done - but I believe you said the mod was pretty much done months ago and you've made great improvements since, so I'll just wait until it really is absolutely done. That said, it would be nive if I can at least quite mod out some of the stuff myself.
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Re: GMDX: Gameplay Mod. (HDTP Compatible)

Post by Cybernetic pig »

gamer0004 wrote: I see no contradiction there, why wouldn't Page add in some cheap bots? Can't hurt.
Page is the founder of Page Industries, a bot manufacturer, among other things.
Tracing effect in the original game was already not very subtle, but this is much much worse. But it's your call. Can I easily mod it out of the mod myself (almost any mod quickly leads to a modception in my experience)?
Mod it out and you'll regret it. See how fast they move? With the crappy DX running anim it looks bad, and the tracing effect hides this rather well. It's meant to represent a defensive aug, energy shield perhaps, or one unheard of, and it does a great job of hiding the running anim, adding character to that class of enemy (toughest enemies in the game), and I was careful not to conflict with lore with this class as well. Honestly it looks great, and in DX, where there is funky nano defense effect, funky cloaking effects etc I'm not sure why this is a problem.
Like you say, the game should not give you the impression that it all revolves around the player, so why add running guards which only make sense as a gameplay mechanic against our specific player character?
But does it really mean that it is unbelievable? You can't tell me security forces/military forces have never ran when on shift, like they have some additional magnetic force holding them down. Sure it's not a likely occurrence, but it has happened.
You make valid points, but they are only running, something that humans do. Yes it's not likely in this context, but I don't think it's quite so unbelievable/Immersion-Breaking. I doubt that this is unsuitable for DX. Would all hell break loose if I mentioned Leo jankowski's infinite running at the start of Invisible War? :mrgreen:

I'm pretty sure there are patrols IRL where jogging/running happens anyway. I have a vague scene in my head of military personnel running around the perimeter or something, but that may just be from a movie :) Need the opinion of someone with good military experience perhaps.
Huh, didn't know that. Still, it may be sensible with balance in mind, but I consider immersion more important
.

Well then, back to a previous discussion from a year or so ago: May as well get rid of the skill system then, because most of those skills are counter-simulation.
Gameplay>Simulation. Simulation design you fit in for all you can, but gameplay should ultimately take precedence if it has to.
DX, and indeed all Immersive Sims were clearly designed with this principle.
In general though, flamethrowers are incredibly ineffective, hence why they're not used in armed forces anymore (I always considered Gunther's choice to be a quirky character thing). It certainly doesn't make sense on a commercially developed robot which presumably was probably designed by teams of engineers aiming to make it the most efficient killing machine. Flamethrowers only get in the way
Agreed, probably not very practical. I may remove it because there is a fine line between for simulation|gameplay. Gameplay is more important but sim design should still have a notable influence on design decisions (and believe me, they have each time).
TBH, I am very picky with mods. I rarely play mods, as they often improve 50-80% of whatever it is they want to improve and ruin 20-30%, which simply isn't a trade-off I want to make.
Well so far you have only disagreed with 4 of many design decisions revealed. so the percentage for my mod may be a lot higher. :D
I am big on sim design too, and you have made valid complaints that I value, believe me.

Here are my feelings after this discussion, in short:

Runners: Debatable/am still not convinced they should go.
Tracing effect: Fits perfectly fine, I'll be damned if I remove this, especially cause those enemies add great value to the gameplay.
Flamethrower: Probably a little too silly, but the devs done it so I can get away with it :) Still am considering removing it though, because this mod does attempt to "fix" aspects of Deus Ex, after all.
Bots: Problematic, I agree. I may do as previously mentioned and make them only have those abilities late in the game.
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Re: GMDX: Gameplay Mod. (HDTP Compatible)

Post by nerdenstein »

Regarding the Bots: Isn't there an unused small bot in the game files? I believe TNM used it on a number of occasions, and even gave it specifically a flamethrower?
The bot's design fit the weapon slightly better from what I remember. It also looked less inexpensive. I'm tired and may have completely made that up. Never. Ever. Leave Uni reports until the night before. ](*,)
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Cybernetic pig
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Re: GMDX: Gameplay Mod. (HDTP Compatible)

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Yes there is a little unused bot that looks more hi-tech, but I am unaware of it's workings. Is it fully functional? Did TNM have to update it's code to be able to use it? I'll have a look.

It will have to wait for v6 or a patch, as I will be releasing v5 very soon. (1-3 days, I would provide a solid date but not many people care about the mod so it's not important). Quite frankly I am tired. Not tired of modding, I'd love to do this for the rest of my life, but it is interfering with my real life. I mean I've had Dark Souls II for a week now and have only played a couple of hours :mrgreen:

In all seriousness I need a job, the world is an unforgiving place at times, but I am very lucky I have even been able to make this mod, and it has been an honour to improve such a fantastic game and contribute to the Immersive Sim.
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Re: GMDX: Gameplay Mod. (HDTP Compatible)

Post by DDL »

Just fyi, the other secbot is entirely good to go, since basically all the bot code is in robot, not the respective bot classes themselves.

It just looks a bit 80s Sci-fi, in all honesty. And should probably be called 'Calvin' or something.
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Re: GMDX: Gameplay Mod. (HDTP Compatible)

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Another peek at GMDX's level design improvements, a very small peek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3fkTSJFxJE

Remember that GMDX is primarily a gameplay mod. The fixing up of certain levels visually is due to an aesthetic dissatisfaction of some of DX's levels I have brought about from working with the Revision team for a short period of time. Some of DX's levels just were not on par with the rest. Smugglers room was one of them, it was practically empty. Whilst you do get empty rooms in the real world, they always have something; power outlets, piping, air conditioning, and so on. Unless the place was disbanded before the plumbing etc could be fitted, but the mirror upstairs, installed lighting and smugglers computer (requires power) tells us that this is not the case, and I see no generator.
Additionally, see that gas grenade? Aside from it's gameplay purposes it "fixes" some dialogue indirectly, as JC asks Smug "Why the booby traps"?, yet vanilla there was only one trap.

With the skybox before all you could see was clouds. This was bad because firstly the Smug map is very clearly around ground level, you go down an elevator and then go up those small set of stairs. Smack bang in the middle of hells kitchen, well the skybox needed some buildings

I have gone with 28/Mar/14 as a release date.
DDL wrote:Just fyi, the other secbot is entirely good to go, since basically all the bot code is in robot, not the respective bot classes themselves.

It just looks a bit 80s Sci-fi, in all honesty. And should probably be called 'Calvin' or something.
Thanks. Heh, yeah it does look a little funky also, but what about the Walker bots? I've always thought they were a little hilarious (but cool).
Due to their linear movements (at least that's all the player ever sees, that one linear walking anim sequence, no intelligent balancing systems) they seem somewhat impractical. I guess it's back to the assumptions; we have to assume they are smarter than that, though there are certain maps where it is clear they are not as they cannot step up brushes any higher than ~16 units. The one in NYC Streets_08 did this, was essentially trapped in the road, so I raised his maxStepHeight just a touch.
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Re: GMDX: Gameplay Mod. (HDTP Compatible)

Post by Cybernetic pig »

nerdenstein wrote:Have you considered adding grenades to enemies yet? ;)
That's still a thing I want to try, even if it's just EMP grenades? It would give more weight to the Energy Shield aug and make sense in certain missions where UNATCO and MJ12 were actively hunting JC (in NYC during the 'Ton raid and the return after that when you're meeting with Dowd.)
And maybe give Chinese Police in the Market Gas Grenades for example?

If balancing is an issue, is there a way to make it so NPC's can equip and use the grenades but so the player can't loot them from corpses like in Human Revolution for example?
Just saw this. Yes balancing would be an issue. And yeah, making the grenades non-lootable would solve that problem. Making specific pawns with a newly added var/bool set true in the maps to not pass grenades to the corpse would probably do it, but NPCs with grenades do have trouble at times. Sometimes they have trouble deciding to throw, standing there raising the grenade to throw over and over, and then theres the issue that nades are very easy to avoid, and they take a while for pawns to equip also, which is realistic, but in other games with AI nade throwing there is never an equip time. And they make no consideration for friendly NPCs when throwing, if I remember correctly. Lots of stuff would have to be done, but if done right it would be cool. one to do for a version 6 for sure. That's something invisible war did better: Combat AI. Especially nade throwing.
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