DDL wrote:For absolutely no good reason, sometimes people you tranq will just..die....surprisingly realistic given that tranquilizers really really don't work like they do in games
Yeah, that's true. Still, for a DX game, pathetic. DX had its "unconscious" bugs, but it was trying something new and ethics in a game was awesome. Even if DX3 had to drop traq darts for a stun weapon, it's something they should have gotten right. With boss fights and random death, can there be a pacifist approach? Or would that be not playing? No wonder everyone kills the NPCs.
I get that boss fights were like a good-game sauce, but uncertain lethality would have eliminated much of DX1's depth. Is that some kind of a bug that'll be fixed?
actually I'd argue that chance the person could die would add a lot more complexity and depth to that system. I'd also argue that if you made like a lethality scale on the weapons that you create certain categories like "fairly safe to use, could cause injuries, definitely likely to cause injuries but not kill, cause major injuries with a potential to kill, Kill "Lethal" Weapon, "YOU DON'T EVEN WANT TO KNOW"".
Basically meaning the type of damage and the potential it has to kill a person is based on the attribute of the weapon itself. As to if the person dies or not, it'd be strictly region based, shoot a person in the leg with a low lethality weapon and they live, shoot a person in the head with a low lethality weapon and there's a potential it may kill them. Shoot a person in the leg with a high lethality weapon and it'll kill them a lot of the time, or knock them out from shock some of the time.
Anyway this is just basic stuff I've been thinking of lately. I honestly don't like the idea of Lethal vs Non-lethal, sure it worked for Deus Ex and was really awesome, but I feel there should be a risk involved that there is a potential for failure as it makes things a lot more interesting. Ultimately though it comes down to the type of game you're making as to the suitability of such a system. My opinion is though that a lethality scale is a good way to avoid just a black/white lethal vs non-lethal system.
The idea itself is good. The only problem is that such a system would encourage quick-saving.
What I don't get is why there is nothing like in "Death to Spies" where you can use a chloroform napkin to knock somebody out. After all there you can say you can control the amount of chloroform you apply as you make the target sniff it until it stops fighting. But I guess in reality there would be still a risk.
That said would you want to play a game where it is helluva complicated to knock somebody unconscious?
The idea itself is good. The only problem is that such a system would encourage quick-saving.
Not a problem if the game is "Dead is Dead".
That said would you want to play a game where it is helluva complicated to knock somebody unconscious?
As a means of discouraging its over use.. yes. RPG's should not be about just spamming the same ability over and over, there should at least some strategic element to it. Deus Ex 3 is nothing but spamming.
Takedowns leads to that, I've seen (Manhunt, Punisher).
Uncertain lethality is realistic. If I don't want to kill people, I don't get a job as a security guard/mercenary/whatever. Thing is, I didn't get that job. Games where "You are Space Marine #1 -- walk forward and kill" have their charm, but in DX I was there and I could decide what to do. It was a videogame, and I had control. When I didn't want to kill someone, I could choose not to. Shooting Louis Pan was sometimes fun, but so was harmlessly tranqing all the "NSF Terrorists", or being the nonviolent-savior JC. There were issues (Lebedev, Anna, and the NPC status logic Jonas or CtC know better than me), but I'd expect improvement a decade later. If it's a bug, that's fine, but I got bored of first-person games limited as "shooters". Nonviolently killing people makes me wonder what the point was, why I'm considering the game when I don't play much. Just the name, marketing?
Jensen is more standard-FPS badass-marine than savior, and DX3 isn't DX1, but "The nonlethal weapons also kill" seems designed to make me irate.
edit: a lethality scale could work. I don't see the fun (unpredictable failure frustrates), but "Don't aim rubber bazooka at opponent's head" makes sense and is playable. Sorry to be ranty when I've tried to be evenhanded, but if it isn't a bug, it's the middle finger to anyone who disliked bossfight forced-killing.
Jaedar wrote:Considering bullets tend to pass through unconscious opponents I think we can safely say something is wrong with the
code.
Do they? I've killed numerous unarmed civilians that I knocked out with a takedown earlier by shooting them through the head. Note that this is the xbox version, so maybe it's platform dependent.
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Jaedar wrote:Considering bullets tend to pass through unconscious opponents I think we can safely say something is wrong with the
code.
Do they? I've killed numerous unarmed civilians that I knocked out with a takedown earlier by shooting them through the head. Note that this is the xbox version, so maybe it's platform dependent.
I only know that when I tried to shoot a policeman I knocked out the bullets went through him and hit the floor.
"Delays are temporary; mediocrity is forever."
odio ergo sum
They could and maybe should have just gone down the sci-fi route and explaned it as some neuroparalytic pulse that knocks enemies out with the magic of Science and as a secondary function keeps them from choking on their own tongues. They'd still die if they fell down stairs or over a railing, but that would be predictable and might add a fun challenge for pacifists.
We were planning something kind of like that for Hyperion (slightly more involved though).
I think such a risk system could work but it needs more complex reactions of the missions and NPCs to what you do. Definitely not easy but it would be a step into a direction I've not seen yet. It definitely requires awards for those finding non-violent ways (and this includes knocking the balls out of somebody) to encourage avoiding taking the risk of killing somebody when you try to knock them out.
Yeah, I wanted to suggest Taser, but that doesn't do what a Stun Prod apparently does. It'd have to be a new invention, which is fine, especially to preserve choice.
I don't like the idea of nonviolently subverting evil people who have apparently swallowed cyanide pills, or choke on their tongues, or develop acute respiratory failure. Randomness is realistic, but I'd just stare at the dead NPC and wonder what I'm supposed to do now.
