Narrative choices in games

[Jonas]

One thing that I really love, and I suspect most people on this board agree, is to be presented with interesting narrative choices during a game. At their best, these choices are real dilemmas, with no obvious right or wrong. Sometimes they have clear effects on the power balance of the game as well as simply determining which direction the narrative proceeds in. Sometimes they simply create a small side branch to the main plot, other times they actually change the entire resolution of the main plot.

So here's a question. What are the best narrative choices you remember in games that you've played? What made them great? And can you extrapolate that into some sort of general guideline for what kind of choices you enjoy?

I'll start off with a choice familiar to all of us: on my list, the Lebedev scene in Deus Ex ranks pretty high. It's a real dilemma in the classical sense of the word: UNATCO's mandate expressly forbids executing unarmed prisoners, yet you've been ordered by your superior to kill Lebedev, who is unarmed and has just surrendered to you. Compounding the situation is Anna Navarre, who will kill Lebedev if you don't (meaning the prisoner dies and you still get scolded), and the only way to prevent that is to murder her.

It's a great choice because it doesn't have a solution where you can get everything your way - you will always win some and lose some. If you want to be on your boss's good side, you have to kill the prisoner. If you want to save the prisoner, you have to kill your partner. If you refuse to kill anybody, you will be scolded by both your boss and your prisoner. Now, my traditional wisdom is that the effects of your choice have to last for a while, otherwise it won't be truly meaningful, but in this case, it's okay that only some of the effects are felt later. Juan Lebedev is never going to show up again if you save him from Navarre, but Navarre will show up later if you don't, and both Navarre, Manderley, Paul, and probably others at UNATCO that I forget will let you know what their feelings about your actions are no matter what you choose to do. That's cause and effect enough to make the choice seem significant.

Dragon Age is another example of a game that had some solid choices. At the end of every major quest arc, you had to decide how to resolve a precarious situation. (Spoiler warning!) A good one was whether to side with the werewolves or the elves in the forest arc. Both sides have clearly committed acts of poor morality, but they all had their reasons, and now you have to pick sides. There sort of is a good and a bad way to resolve it, which makes it slightly less powerful, but though you have all the necessary information to make your decision going into it, you won't really know the full outcome of either decision until you make it (you can't predict how the "losing" side takes it, basically). The decision is imbued with further significance by determining whether you get elves or werewolves on your side in the final battle of the game, which may not make much of a difference in terms of the effectiveness of your troops, but is nevertheless a considerable aesthetic and narrative change.

Unfortunately some of the other major choices in Dragon Age are less well executed. The Redcliffe choice was compelling, but relies on the fact that you have to make an uninformed decision - the setup hints that certain consequences exist which basically do not, which for example caused me to make a decision that was suboptimal because it was implied that the optimal solution had strong negative consequences which it didn't really. Of course the fact that there is a solution where everything turns out great makes the choice less interesting in and of itself, and concealing that fact was the easiest way to solve that. It just felt extremely cheap.

So, over to you guys. What do you like?

[bobby 55]

Bioshock 2 as in the first gives you a choice to harvest or save the Little Sisters. However in Bioshock 2 the choice really does change the way I feel about my character. In my first playthrough I harvested them and got an ending where I felt my character was an asshole as his actions turned his "daughter" into a demoness of sorts. In my second playthrough I saved them and got the " happy ever after" ending, but more importantly I felt a lot happier with my character and his actions.

To a lesser degree in Mass Effect 2 you can play as a Paragon, and with a click of the mouse do an especially good deed, but some of the coolest moments in the game happen if you choose to take the Renegade option when presented with one. That's not really a narrative choice though I guess.

[Hassat Hunter]

ME (Bring down the sky):
* Save the hostages, but let the bad guy go... or kill the bad guy so the galaxy is safer, but the hostages die. Hostages always do good...

Vampire Bloodlines:
* Killing a ghoul because she threatnens to break the masquerade. No way to do this "humanely" but it has to be done if you want to keep the secrecy...

That's all I can think of right now...

[Jonas]

Thanks, those are all superb.

I feel the main problem with Mass Effect 2 is that you generally have no frickin' idea what you're character is going to do when you execute one of those special alignment actions, you just have to click and hope for the best.

It also annoys me that you rarely get a paragon and a renegade option, so it just becomes a choice of "do something super awesome" or "don't do something super awesome", which isn't really any kind of choice at all

[Jaedar]

The Witcher must be mentioned. Although the consequnces for your choices were usually kind of far-fetched at least they were always there(unlike *some* "RPG" games that will not be named because it will derail this debate). No the real reason the Witcher wins is because it builds up to the choices very well(as in you can see them coming unlike Deep Roads in DA:O) and it truly is morally gray. I mean most RPG choices you can explain in a line or two but to explain the complexity of the first real choice you make in TW would take an entire forum post in itself. Or maybe my memory has just been tainted, I'm not sure.

I really don't agree with DA though, it had one, maybe two solid choices the rest were: Bad, worse, Optimal. I think MoTB deserves a mention because good/evil changes so much of your characters motivations for his/her actions. Thematically, its two completely different stories, even though they both follow the same mold.

Oldhand Sacrifice also really deserves a mention, the campaing has so many permutations and 5 endings, each with two major permutations.

Out of examples right now. May refill later. You should post this on the Codex Jonas, those guys have a lot of knowledge when it comes to C&C(or Narrative choice, if you prefer).

[Jonas]

I mean most RPG choices you can explain in a line or two but to explain the complexity of the first real choice you make in TW would take an entire forum post in itself.

How's this? "Side with the sexy witch and kill the villagers, or side with the villagers and kill the evil witch"?

I agree though, The Witcher was good at keeping your choices in shades of grey. And I really liked the brief flashback cutscenes that were used every time a consequence reared its ugly head, to make sure you understood the choices that led you there.

I really don't agree with DA though, it had one, maybe two solid choices the rest were: Bad, worse, Optimal. I think MoTB deserves a mention because good/evil changes so much of your characters motivations for his/her actions. Thematically, its two completely different stories, even though they both follow the same mold.

MotB was brilliant, but the less we say about the happy-ever-after ending that was unlocked if you collected three arbitrarily hidden objects throughout the game, the better

Out of examples right now. May refill later. You should post this on the Codex Jonas, those guys have a lot of knowledge when it comes to C&C(or Narrative choice, if you prefer).

I can't deal with the Codex, my daily allowance of elitism, smugness, and arrogance is fairly low.

[Jaedar]

How's this? "Side with the sexy witch and kill the villagers, or side with the villagers and kill the evil witch"?

I meant the choice before that. With the elves and the food and the starvation and etc.

MotB was brilliant, but the less we say about the happy-ever-after ending that was unlocked if you collected three arbitrarily hidden objects throughout the game, the better

Bleh I say. They weren't even really hidden. And there were happy ever after endings without them. The thing is that you had to choose between happy ever after for you, or happy ever after for the world. If you want both you should have to work for it imo.

I can't deal with the Codex, my daily allowance of elitism, smugness, and arrogance is fairly low.

Would you mind if I posted it over there and parsed the useful replies to this post? Cause I might do that since I'm going to be bedridden for today anyhow.

Oh and I want to mention TNM; sure it was a choice between EVAL and the good guys, but it was still a pretty good choice, but probably too resource consuming for a regular game.

[bobby 55]

It also annoys me that you rarely get a paragon and a renegade option, so it just becomes a choice of "do something super awesome" or "don't do something super awesome", which isn't really any kind of choice at all

That's a good point, it would spice up the game a tad if you had to choose between the two instantaneously, even if the outcome wasn't shown until the end of the game or until you played ME 3.

[Jonas]

I meant the choice before that. With the elves and the food and the starvation and etc.

Oh hrm... I remember that as being later, but I'm hazy on the details. Anyway, smashing game.

Bleh I say. They weren't even really hidden. And there were happy ever after endings without them. The thing is that you had to choose between happy ever after for you, or happy ever after for the world. If you want both you should have to work for it imo.

You shouldn't be able to get both! That's not a good choice.

"What would you like, to sacrifice yourself, to sacrifice the world, or not to sacrifice anything?"
"Well, I think I'll take option three, please!"
"I don't understand why nobody ever picks the first two..."

And what do you mean they weren't really hidden, finding one of them required you to click on a part of the scenery that didn't light up and wasn't indicated as interactable in any useful way. That's not to "work for it", it's pixel hunting, and it's stupid.

Would you mind if I posted it over there and parsed the useful replies to this post? Cause I might do that since I'm going to be bedridden for today anyhow.

Sure, go ahead By and large, they're clever guys. It's just a shame they like to rub it in your face at every opportunity.

[Jaedar]

And what do you mean they weren't really hidden, finding one of them required you to click on a part of the scenery that didn't light up and wasn't indicated as interactable in any useful way. That's not to "work for it", it's pixel hunting, and it's stupid.

'
If my memory serves: piece one: Cannot be missed, found in dreamscape of the coven.
Piece two: found by sleeping near a rock. When you approach the rock the game tells you : whoah this rock is magic. And the nearby magic NPC's will tell you it is a dreaming rock. And if you have Gann with you he pretty much says: sleep by this rock *name*
Piece three: admittedly trickiest. IIRC you have to drink water from the wells of dreaming. The NPC/enemies in the area hint rather heavily at it though, but that may only be if you have the bear guy in your party. I am sure you always get something about how the water is magical and dreamy and stuff.
In short: Not pixel hunting!

You shouldn't be able to get both! That's not a good choice.

It makes one of your companions sad though And depending on your previous choices she can meet a very sad end. But yeah, it is a poor choice if you found the three pieces and you're good. That's why its hidden. Unlike in DA:O when it throws itself at you and you can't even prevent it by booting the thrower out of the party.

[Jonas]

Here we go:

http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blo ... -betrayer/

That is all.

[bobby 55]

Nice review...... lol'd at the comments.

[Jaedar]

That actually touches on something I find very interesting, how game stories don't really dare to give you poor endings yet, but as we all know a proper story has a sad or ambiguous ending. But the thing about the optimal ending is that its still not entirely optimal you don't get to bring down the wall, and it's essentially a betrayal Kaelyn. You do have a point though, the story probably would have been better without it. I'm curious though, what's the third game with best writing according to you?

Link to Codex post for posterity's sake: http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42800

Oh and your Blogging skills have improved a lot, jes saying.

[Xesum]

To be honest, you should think of all possible outcomes for a situation, and then think of some paranormal outcomes for the situation, then you consolidate most of the choices into 2-5 main choices, all of which have their own addition to the story arc. You should also speak with a group of selected people who have a good experience in video games and how popular and cliche certain choices are. And using that information, adjust your main choices accordingly.

And never do what Kojima does where they think of every choice and then make one choice which is over the top and bizarre and then causes the player to look around on the Internet for a solution or spend 5 boring hours trying everything.
For example: In Metal Gear Solid 4, you have to fight Vamp, a Vampire, now my instinct was to get the camera out and blind him, as Vampires are sensitive to light. But Kojima just turns around and says: "No, you have to use your Hypodermic needle on him." Which I only found out after asking a friend.

[chris the cynic]

That actually touches on something I find very interesting, how game stories don't really dare to give you poor endings yet, but as we all know a proper story has a sad or ambiguous ending.

I'm calling bullshit on that. Since when do we all know that a proper story can't have a decent ending?

I realize that you have Aristotle in your camp on this one, but it is worth remembering that Aristotle was a fuckwit. If you daydream, decide not to test whether or not your daydream is in any way related to reality, and then use your leverage with with the greatest conqueror the world has thus far known to make all of western civilization believe that your daydream accurately describes objective reality for more than a thousand years when it is in fact easy to see it is wrong ... well then your views, especially your views on things as nuanced as fiction, should be given no more credence than an eight year old's views on quantum physics. They might be right, but there's no reason to accept them as fact.