Recurring dreams, Deus ex mods, 80s, and NINJAS!

[Dead-eye]

Firstly WR posts crap like this all the time.

Secondly, my critique is valid, having an elitist tone helps no one. Okay WR is educated, but seriously all the way through that little story he makes a lot of references that I think are not in the true spirit of what video game development is, as well as this I don't think he's thought the idea of making a game through as I don't see any Gameplay elements, meaning its all story. Turn it into a book, then I won't have such an issue but I think that telling people that they aren't "good enough" to play their game is just stupid, I was trying to say how dare WR try to suggest that the only intelligent people are over 20 and mod Deus Ex.. WTF? That isn't true because for starters we have Snipa who is just an amazing artist and isn't even 20 yet. Your generalization is offensive. Hence I was equally offensive in telling you that you are full of yourself. It's evident in your tone.

Thirdly, I'm being immature? My point about C programming was advice, they won't teach you any actually relevant information related to game development. They teach you to declare variables, they teach you to loop and they teach you to use arrays.. that's about it. Multimedia on the other hand they will actually teach you how to make a game, and a game specific course will teach you mostly everything you'll need to effectively mod.

I got fed up when I read about his stance towards people. Or did Dead-eye not bother to read the entire thing? because you'll note that he does say some pretty nasty things himself.

Firstly I don't think that you are a Immature person, It's just whenever I see a post were someone talks about something vary personal to them I always see other post that makes fun of them or whatever. Not that the original poster should have posted there personal thought's on a public forum anyway, But when ever I see someone attacking or making fun of someone for being emotional in there post I feel a need to deafened that person with a verbal argument. (never vary good at fist fights anyways.)

But of course I over reacted to your post seeing as how it seemed like you were trying to make fun of the poster. And No I haven't read all of the post seeing as how most of the time people rarely have that much good info that can take up all that space. I should read the thing I guess, just to see how much I overreacted.

[chris the cynic]

And No I haven't read all of the post seeing as how most of the time people rarely have that much good info that can take up all that space.

If anyone is interested the original post was only 3408 words.

Very long for a post, painfully long even, but not all that much space to fill up with good info when you think about it.

I'm not saying that the post consisted of good info, just that less than 3.5 thousand words isn't a lot of space and many people could fill that much space with good info.

[Wounded Ronin]

Wow, 2 pages of replies practically overnight. I hadn't expected such a response.

I guess I should add that 12-year-olds can be alright. There are intelligent and perceptive 12-year-olds. I'm not saying that all 12-year-olds are bratty. Feel better, CP?

To everyone else, thanks for the varied perspectives.

Finally, if anyone has some free time, watch "The Octagon" for classic Chuck Norris ninja conspiracy.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

I somewhat feel better now that your language has been reduced to a proper informality

My point as Jonas incorrectly put it was that a video game consists of two equally important elements. 50% gameplay and 50% story, the reason why I say 50% is that if its too much gameplay it becomes PacMan or Pong and if its too much story then its better off being a book or a film because it has no gameplay elements therefore isn't a game at all. The 50-50 zone is merely the median, you can make variations but it should at least try to keep them fairly equal, you can have story driven games, you can also have games that play with an underlying story (like Sonic 3 and S+K for instance).

I know I have a lot of hostility to Wounded Ronin but I'm just really fed up with his posts about dreams all the time. He knows how I'll react or at least should know. We're an online community not a physiologist service, though you are entitled to expression as such I would prefer you not disclose that information in future as its not necessary. We don't really have to know how you came to the conclusion for your idea, all that matters is that your idea is good and works. Now I know I can and usually do act like a prick but at this point I'm trying to advise you that if you want to reduce your post size down you can build a great design document and cut all the crap about your life out of it.. it's not productive in anyway to the process.

And to the rest that didn't read it, well I wouldn't bad mouth me given I at least bothered to give him a bit of attention. I did read it WR and I didn't like what I heard, though I'm not criticizing your story rather your attitude.

Story wise, it certainly isn't original I'll give it that but if you are going for just a crazy Deus Ex style story with a lot of twists I think it could be enjoyable so long as you democratize it a bit, because a lot of your target audience needs to understand what you are talking about.

[Wounded Ronin]

Well, thank you for your sincere input.

This post, truthfully, was a sort of brainstorm. I suppose that I should defer more detailed game plans, though, until I have practiced enough with mapping to be able to produce an actual game and have the confidence that I'd be able to produce something on the caliber of my original idea. No doubt at that point I'd also be able to work on balancing story and gameplay elements.

[that guy]

Incidentally I notice you mentioned JA2 so feel I should mention that it is an awesome game.

[Jonas]

My point as Jonas incorrectly put it was that a video game consists of two equally important elements. 50% gameplay and 50% story, the reason why I say 50% is that if its too much gameplay it becomes PacMan or Pong and if its too much story then its better off being a book or a film because it has no gameplay elements therefore isn't a game at all. The 50-50 zone is merely the median, you can make variations but it should at least try to keep them fairly equal, you can have story driven games, you can also have games that play with an underlying story (like Sonic 3 and S+K for instance).

So what you're saying is that video games consist of two equally important elements: 50% gameplay and 50% story, but many games are heavily biased in either way (like Sonic 3 and S+K for instance). In other words, video games consists of whatever the fuck the game designer wanted them to. PacMan or Pong aren't video games, or...? How about The Longest Journey which many people love for its story but which arguably have no gameplay to speak of? Or how about sports games? One of the most financially dependable genre of games as far as I know, and fuck all story in by far the most cases.

You remind me of those people you read about in film history who tried to define what films were about back in the day. First they all said a good film should be formalistic and have nothing to do with the real world, then a bunch of other guys said film should be realistic and resemble real life as well as possible and then they all got into a big verbal mud wrestling fight. In the mean time all the good filmmakers were actively ignoring them all and making really awesome films.

I'm all for identifying elements in games that detract from the experience, just like the film industry has rules for continuity editing and 3 point lighting and all that crap. Just remember those rules have all been broken with success at some point or other. And don't try to invent your own measure of how all games should be and then base your arguments on that because you might as well say all games should be first person.

[EER]

All games should be isometric and should simulate something.

[Dead-eye]

On this issue I would say that I agree with Jones, but not completely.

Most game studios are owned by bigger company's that are run by non-gamer old business men. That only won't to get as much money out of a game as possible. Therefor most studios have a limited amount of time to produce a game and are pushed to use the bare minimum to make a game so they can get it out there as fast as passable and their boss can get a lot of money, and hopefully the studio will get thrown a bone or two.

This leads to crap games, that focuses on game play or Storyline, so the studio can retain a little dignity. What I think Mr.CP really won't is 100% game play and 100% storyline. Not just a lot of work put into one or the other.

But I'm mostly guessing. BTW did you hear about the monopoly game movie?

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

I just want to say to Jonas, you design games how you want to and I'll design them how I want to.. then which ever works better wins the argument. It's pointless to argue given that each designer is different and will no doubt prefer a different method. And even then the demographics are always changing however I like making games that can be everything to everyone if I can.

Meanwhile I'm more a guy that prefers interactivity over story, if a person can do what ever they want then this way the game can cater for anyone with an adventurous spirit. Whereas a story driven game usually is stuck towards telling the story (with some limited non-linearity, like a choose your own adventure style book). It's really a matter of choosing are you a 'world builder' or a 'story writer'. If we're talking strictly gameplay based games then these are arcade games which are still great and appear on our mobile phones these days . I've got to say its a very versatile medium as well as diverse.

Also I'm not afraid of a game that makes me think. I'd just like to be able to play it without the use of a dictionary

[that guy]

An interesting (and I think accurate) analogy in the whole linearity vs non-linearity debate. Have you noticed that the stories in choose your own adventure books tend to suck?

[EER]

Have you noticed that the stories in choose your own adventure books tend to suck?

I tried, but I don't get it

[Jonas]

Have you noticed that the stories in choose your own adventure books tend to suck?

Yes. Possibly because the people who write them lack the skills to construct a proper narrative and use the interactive nature of those books to cover it up.

[EER]

Now I get it! "choose your own adventure book" is one word. Damn languages.

[Wounded Ronin]

An interesting (and I think accurate) analogy in the whole linearity vs non-linearity debate. Have you noticed that the stories in choose your own adventure books tend to suck?

Well, to be fair the actual "Choose Your Own Adventure" franchise focused on storylines for young children so they tended to be stupidly politically correct and mild. Kind of like kids' cartoon shows.

I remember a few of them, too. In one of them your character goes back to ancient Greece to participate in the first olympics. It turns out your stupid younger brother went there ahead of you and you have the chance to humiliate him in wrestling in front of a large crowd. That's the story. WTF?

Back in the 80s I remember there were a series of martial arts ones, too, cashing in on the popularity of martial arts in that decade. "You Are A Master of Karate" followed later in the series and was pretty awful. At one point in the storyline you visit an electronics shop which gets raided by men wearing kendo uniforms and wielding wooden swords. It just gets worse and worse from there if you can even believe it.

There were even 2 books where you played the caucasian female friend of this ninja chick named Nadia. In one of the story arcs you travel in time back to medieval Japan to save Nadia. And nobody notices that you're a white chick with big hair because you are able to disguise yourself as the household help.

EDIT: Here's some music to celebrate the "Master of ______" Choose Your Own Adventure series: http://rapidshare.com/files/57601393/Ki ... u.mp3.html