The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoilers

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Mariner
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by Mariner »

nerdenstein wrote: As for the Bosses, ignoring the gameplay side of it, they didn't work very well in the narrative because they were never fully explored as characters in the game.
My solution to that problem would actually kill two birds with one stone. Although combat in HR is certainly more polished in firearms, the first game actually had much better melee options.

Strap in, cause it's gonna be a long one.

Hand-to-hand combat in the first game may have been little more than "click till badguyz r ded" on the surface, but it saved ammo and time in a tight spot, and it also had the option of augmentations that made you stronger at it at the cost of other augs. In HR, the only melee is the takedown system. While useful and has it's own drawbacks, no one can ignore the fact that it's essentially an in-engine cutscene, which is a shitty excuse for melee.

Having watched the Making of video, it's clear that the artists fought with the game devs to give players a glimpse of how viscerally devastating augmentations can be in hand-to-hand, but I'm dumbfounded that the devs look at this as a binary choice.

I'd keep the takedown system, but I'd actually allow players to control Adam during takedowns and use the existing augmentation tree to affect what options a player has depending on what they've picked. To keep this from being a quicktime nightmare, I'd implement a "slowdown" effect on the physics when you commit to a takedown or melee option. From the default aug loadout, you have less than 5 seconds to choose what moves to pick, and that's depending on whether or not the target is alerted to your presence or not. However, from the outset you have two options for both lethal and non-lethal approaches, so the lack of time isn't a big deal. Depending on having augs like Reflex Booster and how far you develop them, your choices can increase.

An example for a lethal option tree (Depending on context) would be:
  • blade to the limbs, then chest (takes 3 sec, prevents light and medium opponents from either dodging or shooting you during the assault, but is audible to enemies in proximity & corners.) - Available by default
  • grab a charging opponent and head twist them (takes 4-5 sec depending on opponent number, forces nearby opponents to seek cover, may force enemies to switch to longer range heavy weapons from cover, thus a bad choice for military enemies) - Requires Reflex booster and Aim Stabilizers to unlock.
  • Quiet skewer to the throat (takes 2 sec, only works on one target at a time, works best on light or stunned mediums, does not alert enemies outside of line-of-light) - Requires Reflex Booster, Aim Stabilizers, Move/Throw Heavy Objects, & Run Silently
To make things more interesting (and interactive), enemies WOULD be able to counter and dodge your attacks depending on their difficulty, with the bosses having melee skills with particularly devastating counters (though each having their own weaknesses and effects, based on their CHARACTERIZATION)

However, depending on what and how far you develop your augmentations, your melee options are not only increased in choice of moves, but also what tradeoffs you are willing to make based on your playstyle. I'll call these "emergent" augmentations (E-augs for short), as they are unintended consequences of so many augmentations running in tandem in one person. They are NOT listed in any inventory or menu, requiring the player to discover that they've unlocked them through accident.

For example, a specific combination of fully developed augs will grant you increased time when you want to pick or change your tactics, maxing out at a full minute to give the player a chance to select the most powerful or specific moves for a tough challenge. The kicker with this emergent aug is that it's impossible to achieve without completing at least 90% of side quests and exploring as much of the world as possible. Here's a list of what you need to unlock this E-aug:
  • Wayfinder Radar System - All upgrades
  • Stealth Enhancer - All upgrades
  • Retinal Prosthesis - All upgrades
  • Social Enhancer - All "upgrades"
  • Quicksilver Reflex Booster - All upgrades
  • Energy: N/A
This combination of augs results in Adam being able to mentally react to a situation and having the raw analytic power to consider all of his options, which translates in-game to the longer pause.

Other E-augs might include the following:

"Go with The Flow" - Allows one to dodge a successful counter-move by any level of opponent, which is especially useful if you make the mistake of trying to takedown someone like Fedorova without EMP or Gas stunning her first.
Requires:
  • Quicksilver Reflex Booster
  • Social Enhancer
  • Aim Stabilizer - All upgrades
  • Recoil Compensation - All upgrades
  • Energy: 1 (will not auto-activate if less than 2 full bars)
"Jen-Jitsu" - Takedown up to two opponents non-lethally while remaining fully cloaked.
Requires:
  • Quicksilver Reflex Booster
  • Aim Stabilizer - All upgrades
  • Sarif Series 8 Energy Converter - All upgrades
  • Glass-Shield Cloaking System - All upgrades
  • Energy: 2 for one opponent, 3 for two opponents
Okay, that's all good, but how exactly does this relate to giving the bosses much needed characterization?

Well, when you defeat each boss, instead of jumping to an insta-dead cutscene, you would have the option of leaving them alive to interrogate (in Barrett's case I'd consider having a hacking minigame where you might be able to deactivate his self-destruct) or finish them for great justice. Depending on how deft you are at conversations, you can force them to spill their guts, leave you with more questions than answers, or fall prey to a last-ditch suicide if you totally bomb at dialogue. I'd also leave the option open to execute them at any point in the conversation, each opportunity having different XP rewards (extracting info from them gets the most points, but you can get some points for killing them outright or for hesitating until they try to blow themselves up or kill you first.)

That is how one does characterization in video games. Don't just show or tell us, let us interact with them.
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VectorM
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by VectorM »

[quote="AEmer@ Everybody, re VectorM
Image[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPdfOzla494
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by shadowblade34 »

I vote Mariner for best poster out of the last few pages.
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Grammatolatry
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by Grammatolatry »

AEmer wrote:@ Nerdenstein and Mariner

I don't know that Adams place in the story is done, but maybe. Honestly, switching to another protagonist is a good for most stories, and I think exploring some of the characters of HR through the eyes of another character would be a good. I think I would prefer it if you played as an agent of the illuminati in the next piece of DLC.

I would obviously prefer save game transfers akin to Mass Effect, but I don't think Eidos Montreal are willing to dig their own grave like that - they already couldn't fully implement everything to their satisfaction for the first game, having a spaghettiweb of a story won't make it easier for them to improve for the next one.

But, game companies like building up repeat characters, almost like mascots. It's an awful tradition because it can spoil narratives and make them nonsensible, but they still do it.

I also think they'll do the reasonable thing: They'll pick one of the endings and make it canon, so whether Adam lives or dies will have a determinate answer. That, or they'll cheat and do something that invalidates whatever choice Adam made after the fact, perhaps even right after.

@ Everybody, re VectorM
Image
I'm strongly of the belief that Adam escapes panchaea. In the place where Sarif was holed up there was a nice convenient submarine placed a bit too obviously. Eidos also sunk big bucks into creating and marketing Adam as a Deus ex character, so while it may suit the tragedy theme to have him die, I don't think he will. Also, in the DLC ending scene where Quinn is talking to Janus (?) they talk about how the "truth" should have been revealed to Adam then because he would be useful "in the coming storm", but he needed to find Megan first because she was a distraction to him. That implies that there's something even bigger than panchaea going on that they need Adam for.
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by Mariner »

Grammatolatry wrote: I'm strongly of the belief that Adam escapes panchaea. In the place where Sarif was holed up there was a nice convenient submarine placed a bit too obviously. Eidos also sunk big bucks into creating and marketing Adam as a Deus ex character, so while it may suit the tragedy theme to have him die, I don't think he will. Also, in the DLC ending scene where Quinn is talking to Janus (?) they talk about how the "truth" should have been revealed to Adam then because he would be useful "in the coming storm", but he needed to find Megan first because she was a distraction to him. That implies that there's something even bigger than panchaea going on that they need Adam for.
I noticed the submarine there, but I doubt Adam could either make it back up in time or that he'd take it ahead of people like Sarif in that room. It felt like more window dressing to remind players that they are underwater than anything significant.

I can put up with Adam surviving the Panchaea events, but they'd have to seriously quintuple the effort and playtesting in order to make future DLC's shine like the fucking sun to compensate for breaking the narrative. I'm convinced that they won't pull an "Alex Jensen" out of their asses, but I'll be just as pissed if they turn Adam into a mech-version of JC.

For as much as some fans bitch about JC or Adam being the better chracter, Eidos-M was smart enough to realize the Deus Ex was not a protagonist-central franchise, so even if they resurrect Adam, I hope they don't fall prey to sequelitis and make him a self-parody.
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by AEmer »

@ Grammatolatry

All that you say makes a lot of sense. It's definitely possible for them to say, this is what happened, here Adam is, he's still alive.

But I really feel like, well, if Adam is going to be a protagonist again, don't make it quite yet.

Consider Half Life. It had two expansion packs exploring and further developing the world and themes of half life before you got to play Gordon Freeman again. If Eidos want to make Adam a Mascot-type character, like Snake Plisken, Nathan Drake or Kratos, then clearly they'll have to use him again. But they don't have to use him straight away.

Let him come back, with all his problems and mysteries, like an old friend who's been overseas for the past 4 years. Give him an awesome entrance. And give us another protagonist, one who's less special, maybe even one who did ask for the augmentations.

I don't want Adams story to be over, and I don't think it is - but for now, I think getting a respite from it would be the right thing. Give the franchise more depth. Incorporate the massive zombie thing in a fashion that people can deal with, and switch from the transhumanism theme to one all the more focused on government and government conspiracies - and the origin of AI. Perhaps make the singularity an important theme.
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by Grammatolatry »

I feel like the melting witch of the west against your arguments. They're so damn plausible, even though I really hope they're wrong.
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by AEmer »

well, Adam is pretty cool, and I totally get where you're coming from.

I have a huge man-crush on commander shepard, and I already feel sad that he won't be back after the 3rd mass effect game. I honestly wish he would stick around, slowly aging and becomming and old space-pirate. Maybe do some tricks with time dilation, put him forward into the future a couple of thousand years.

He's by far the protagonist of any game ever I've felt the strongest about.
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by bobby 55 »

I guess it's possible they could give Adam a cameo and have a new protaganist "discover the truth" as well as Adam's fate.

@AEmer: I'm with you about Shepard. I liked the guy by the end of ME 1 and even more after ME 2. I like renegade Jane but paragon John is my favourite.
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by AEmer »

I actually didn't realize just how much I liked shepard til I played the game again as renegade.

For whatever reason, it seems like playing mass effect 1 as a completionist really detracts from the experience of the story and the characters for me. When I played as a renegade though, this sequence actually had me tearing up a little:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVx9k4Gy6IE#t=26m0s

I'm easy to tears, of course, so it doesn't say much...but that's pretty much the point where I realized just how into the story I actually am.

Maybe it's the same deal with Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Approaching the game as an irrational explorefest might make me jaded and pull me less into the experience, but it's just such an appealing way to play because you know you're going to have an edge if you do it.
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by Grammatolatry »

I asked Eidos this question the other day and their reply gives me the impression they weren't going to put more Adam into DX.
D:

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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by nerdenstein »

Grammatolatry wrote:I asked Eidos this question the other day and their reply gives me the impression they weren't going to put more Adam into DX.
D:

Image
What were their exact words?
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by shadowblade34 »

Grammatolatry wrote:I asked Eidos this question the other day and their reply gives me the impression they weren't going to put more Adam into DX.
D:

Image

This question was posted on Jonatcho (the Art Drector's tumblr) just a few moments ago.
"Anonymous asked: Will you consider making another game with
Adam Jensen as the main protagonist? i like him."

And the answer was:
"Of course I could consider it, yes. I love him too, and I definitely think he should still get first role in many more games. My personal opinion of course."
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by Grammatolatry »

I just saw that too! I'm confused now. Might as well stop thinking about it. Whatever will happen will happen...

Nerdy: that "reblog this and let us know you opinion" was their reply.
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Re: The Human revolution thread, now with 233213% more spoil

Post by AEmer »

Awesome :D

Isn't the art director the person Adam's looks are based on?
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