DX3 reviews?

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AEmer
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by AEmer »

Yup. Good memory.

IBM, while not necessarily war profiteers like haliburton or blackwater, have never shyed away from making money. Being a ruthless capitalist takes a certain amount of ruthlessness, after all.

The way they brought their technological edge to bear is much more apparent during the early computer movement of the 50'es and 60es than it is today, though I'm sure you can find good examples from this period too.

While their technology was generally inferior to locally developed and designed solutions with more specific aims, the fact that they had an existing infrastructure of salespeople, and an existing network of clients, meant that they were able to outgrow all new competition even during periods of economic disruption, which is generally what happens as technology leaps forward (as it did rapidly in the 50'es).

If Nazi's happen to be the ruling party, don't fight it, adapt to it, appears to be what happened during world war 2. In the long run, IBM has always come out on top.

In Denmark, the best concrete example of how heavily the markets favored IBM is Regnecentralen, a small corporation driven by engineers and faculty members of Aarhus university, situated within the walls of the university itself. They produced a complete and functional computer in 1955 (called Dask) for less than a tenth of what IBM demanded, with more available data processing power. They were later instrumental in the development of the concept of a microkernel, and according to wikipedia (sourced to my local history museum), a significant part of OS research centered around improving that concept during the 70es and early 80es.

By volume, even though Dask was earlier, faster and better, and available at a significantly lower price, IBM shipped more than 10 times the amount of electronic computers than regnecentralen in their common market during the 60es.
As far as I know, this is not a unique situation, with similar occourences in the other nordic countries, and undoubtedly in the US as well.

Here's another fun fact:

Though all the key numbers of IBM appear to be very similar to apple inc's, there is one significant difference...Apple has a profit per year of 20 billion$, IBM one of 10$, total assets are worth around 110-120 billion$ for each company, revenues are about 110 billion$ for each company...but IBM has 460k employees, whereas apple has 60k. Apples success as of late is absolutely magnificent, but IBM are making do just fine, and those 460k employees aren't sitting still. Even though noone talks about them, I'll bet you that if you could sum it up, IBM would turn out to be much more influencial than Apple in terms of business decisions...and unlike Apple, they don't need to keep very far ahead of the curve. The mere fact that they're exceptionally connected means they'll always be profitable, nomatter how technology turns, but the advancement of technology is what has consistently made them money.

Of course, they don't roll in quite as much dough, but technology is absolutely not an economic equalizer for companies. So I don't see why it would necessarily be for people.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by gamer0004 »

You're now talking about companies, not the people those successful firms consist of. This is about the people themselves. About the rich and poor, the losers and the winners. And that's exactly why HR completely missed the boat, whereas DX did not. One of the points of DX was the power of big companies. Which is relevant and, you know, actually true. HR was going on and on about mechanical augmentations, which A) Won't be relevant at all and B) Would not increase the gap between rich and poor, which means it's not even relevant as some kind of extremely elaborate metaphor.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by DDL »

I think you need to bear in mind that

A) the mechanical augmentations were not exclusively of the "lol bionic limb" variety (indeed the implication was that there were a large variety of 'social interaction' augmenting augs, something stated outright in one side mission and with the introduction of the CASIE aug), and
B) following from A, as a purely gameplay-based concern, bionic limbs are far more effective for conveying 'this dude is augmented, this dude is not' than presence/absence of a tiny headscar would be.

I absolutely think the idea of people sitting in an aug clinic going "gotta get me some augs to stay ahead", and getting bionic legs to help them do telesales..is ridiculous, yes. Hamfisted, also. However, I choose to interpret this as simply a narrative conceit since they can't easily represent augs otherwise. Clearly you seem to think that they actually honest-to-goodness are trying to say that bionic legs are valuable assets in telesales, which I guess you're entitled to believe (and hey, you may be right), but I think that credits E:M with basically zero intelligence. Given the abounding evidence that they actually put THOUGHT into the game, I'd say this is likely to be an unfair assumption.

So.

Assuming we take your proposition that augmentation would have no effect on the rich haves and the poor havenots...why not? If you're rich enough to afford a social aug, you'll be more successful at business negotiations than if you can't afford it. You might feel compelled to get in dodgy debt to acquire the aug under these circumstances. This was actually THE ENTIRE PLOT of a sidequest, which is about as clearcut a message as you can get, so if you're still not "feeling it", I don't know what'd change your mind.

Now do I actually approve of the direction they took it all? No, not really. I would've gone for a more subtle, nuanced approach where augmentation was primarily pure mechanical (i.e. limb replacement), sometimes necessary (following injury, esp military), rarely elective (military/mercenary crazies), and generally highly feared and tightly-regulated. Also, rare.

This doesn't change the fact that the story is still relatively well presented as such. And saying DX was "about the rich and poor, the losers and the winners" also misses the boat entirely. Those elements were in there, yes. They were also in HR. The rich/poor divide and so on is simply a standard feature of dystopian cyberpunk. They were not the focus of the games at all. Both were more about being an elite, augmented super agent uncovering conspiracies. I can't believe this didn't sink in for you.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by AEmer »

@ DDL
I agree completely with your analysis on what the augmentations repressent. I think another good example is Maliks augmentations, as a helicopter pilot, which is obviously necessary to fly that insane-looking thing.

It's already exceptionally hard to become a helicopter pilot without taking a gamble and joining the military. It's very expensive and hard to get into. Imagine putting the astronomical cost of surgery and incredibly advanced products on top of that, which can easily dwarf the education you need to go through in cost.

I would also say that while being a super-agent with cybernetics coming out your ears is the essence of the Deus Ex playing experience, the original game had deep philosophical underpinings regarding government itself. The conspiracies were a means to this end. There was also a lot of technological stuff covered up by the conspiracies, but the essence was seizing power, and that's what the game spent time on, not just the how, but also the why and other philosophical underpinnings.

The conspiracies in HR are about, well, not exactly government. They're more concerned with technology, and, as the title says, the coming human revolution. It's a related, but distinct subject. And I don't think this change of focus, especially since the games are so alike in most other regards, as well as a more narrow focus overall, make it any less of a Deus Ex game.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by gamer0004 »

DDL wrote:I think you need to bear in mind that

A) the mechanical augmentations were not exclusively of the "lol bionic limb" variety (indeed the implication was that there were a large variety of 'social interaction' augmenting augs, something stated outright in one side mission and with the introduction of the CASIE aug), and
B) following from A, as a purely gameplay-based concern, bionic limbs are far more effective for conveying 'this dude is augmented, this dude is not' than presence/absence of a tiny headscar would be.

I absolutely think the idea of people sitting in an aug clinic going "gotta get me some augs to stay ahead", and getting bionic legs to help them do telesales..is ridiculous, yes. Hamfisted, also. However, I choose to interpret this as simply a narrative conceit since they can't easily represent augs otherwise. Clearly you seem to think that they actually honest-to-goodness are trying to say that bionic legs are valuable assets in telesales, which I guess you're entitled to believe (and hey, you may be right), but I think that credits E:M with basically zero intelligence. Given the abounding evidence that they actually put THOUGHT into the game, I'd say this is likely to be an unfair assumption.
From what I've seen EM seems to have put very little actual thought into HR. Sure, they've brainstormed a lot, mostly about stealing ideas from literally everything that's popular at this moment (like health regeneration and a distinctive art style based on a certain real life art style), but they don't seem to have been thinking through. Not about mechanical augmentations, which are the essential theme of the game nor about anything else, be it characters or setting or anything else. Given the fact that mechanical augmentations and transhumanism are such important themes, it's even more remarkable (and ridiculous!) to just depict them in a nonsensical way because that's the easiest thing to do (which indeed seemingly only reduces the relevancy and significance of those themes instead of pointing them out).
As to crediting EM with zero intelligence: that's certainly a wrong conclusion. The fact that the implementation of mechanical augs in HR was ridiculous does not mean that wasn't a smart move, look at how succesful HR was! And how many people actually believe it's deep and thoughtful. Making it "better", more realistic, more relevant, more thoughtful probably would have made it a lot more difficult to convey any sort of message, resulting in people either giving up because they don't understand any of it or mocking it because they think it's all rubbish. And Eidos is a company, whose job it is to maximize profit. So not being smart can mean being very smart.
DDL wrote: Assuming we take your proposition that augmentation would have no effect on the rich haves and the poor havenots...why not? If you're rich enough to afford a social aug, you'll be more successful at business negotiations than if you can't afford it. You might feel compelled to get in dodgy debt to acquire the aug under these circumstances. This was actually THE ENTIRE PLOT of a sidequest, which is about as clearcut a message as you can get, so if you're still not "feeling it", I don't know what'd change your mind.

Now do I actually approve of the direction they took it all? No, not really. I would've gone for a more subtle, nuanced approach where augmentation was primarily pure mechanical (i.e. limb replacement), sometimes necessary (following injury, esp military), rarely elective (military/mercenary crazies), and generally highly feared and tightly-regulated. Also, rare.

This doesn't change the fact that the story is still relatively well presented as such. And saying DX was "about the rich and poor, the losers and the winners" also misses the boat entirely. Those elements were in there, yes. They were also in HR. The rich/poor divide and so on is simply a standard feature of dystopian cyberpunk. They were not the focus of the games at all. Both were more about being an elite, augmented super agent uncovering conspiracies. I can't believe this didn't sink in for you.
I'm not saying that. That was the point made in HR rather than in DX. DX was more about the big picture, HR was more about the personal story. Which is a trend I also don't like. Of course, this is not EM's fault. HR just managed to combine some unforgivable things (like not making a real DX game) with many things I just happen to dislike.
Anyway, social augmentations are as much bullshit as other mechanical augmentations. What's interesting, and which is also to some extent the point I believe you're making, is the integration of mind and machines. Implementing chips to identify people (for security or even paying groceries) or track one's position or to control machines, thus removing one extra link (dexterity, to be precise; now instead of mind - body (arms, hands, fingers) - machine (joystick, keyboard, mouse) you get mind - machine) in the input process. This is indeed very interesting and a development which is, to some extent, already happening. But that wasn't the case in HR, where the bullshit augs (social and physical) were the centre of attention.

Last thing I want to say: I agree with you HR wasn't subtle in this respect. Or in literally any other respect, be it art style (oh look, everything looks completely different from what anything has ever looked like and it's all one big metaphor!), characters (cliche, cliche cliche), diaglogue (no conversation possible without some form of conflict), combat (w00t, multi-double-combo-kill thing!) or themes (everything is about augs! It's the only thing people talk about! It's so interesting!). That alone would be enough to put me off from any game/novel/movie.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

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I cannot overstate how easy it is to represent Deus Ex in a way that makes it out to be quite the opposite of deep and thoughtful. Indeed a solid argument can be made that Deus Ex is essentially a slightly juvenile power fantasy wrapped in an even more juvenile and completely confused mish-mash of conspiracy theories that steals just about as much as it can get away with from The Matrix and the X-Files.

We all love Deus Ex, heaven forfend I imply otherwise, but for fuck's sake man, the pedestal you're putting the game on is tall enough to double as a space elevator to the ISS. DXHR has its flaws, design-wise, technologically, and narratively, but as does Deus Ex. You prefer Deus Ex's flaws to DXHR's and that's fine, but it hardly supports the full frontal assault you're conducting on DXHR and Eidos Montreal right now.
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AEmer
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by AEmer »

@ Gamer

Could you please be more specific. You're making really broad statements.

Like the sidequest with the chinese stock broker who'd loaned money from someone for her implants.

What about that quest seems like it wasn't thought through.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by fantsu »

One more thing to paul and maggie...

There was clear hidden message or conversation by some other source that confirmed their romance.
So no reason to think about it anymore.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

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You're gonna have to point out where that was and who wrote it.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

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Re: DX3 reviews?

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EER wrote:Miss Scarlett, in the kitchen, with the candlestick.
No.
It was Colonel Mustard, in the billiard room, with the lead pipe.

Seriously.
I cannot remember, but it was one of those lines that got removed from the final product.
I will search it later.
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AEmer
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by AEmer »

Well, alternative sources are always a bit problematic. They're rarely ever the be-all end-all of dicussions...but it would be interesting to see all the same.

Also, gamer, you're not going to respond to my question?...because then it's not that there's nothing about Deus Ex HR to discuss, it's that whatever stuff there is to discuss is apparently so difficult to discuss and results in such polarized discussions that at least one of the parties ends up disinterested...
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Re: DX3 reviews?

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AEmer wrote:Well, alternative sources are always a bit problematic. They're rarely ever the be-all end-all of dicussions...but it would be interesting to see all the same.

Also, gamer, you're not going to respond to my question?...because then it's not that there's nothing about Deus Ex HR to discuss, it's that whatever stuff there is to discuss is apparently so difficult to discuss and results in such polarized discussions that at least one of the parties ends up disinterested...
Well my experience with these discussions is that they either lead to something at some point, people agreeing on some points while perhaps disagreeing on others or forming an entirely new opinion, or they don't, at which point things get messy. Nowadays, that's generally when I lose interest.

To respond to your question: as I said before, I have only played for a few hours. It was certainly not enough to give elaborate examples or to properly place them into context when given by others. And it's also the exact opposite of the point I'm trying to make: I'm not saying there weren't enough sidequests, or that there wasn't anything interesting going on, or that the gameplay wasn't good, or even that the plot was bad, because I don't know about any of that (though the first few hours were excruciatingly cliché, but things might change later on). What I'm talking about is the setting of HR and its themes. Its setting is centred around its themes, most important of which are physical augmentations. The way mechanical augmentations are portrayed and the weight given to these augmentations is so out of place that it destroys any credibility to the rest of the game. Why would I be interested in problems of fictional people about an issue which is logically impossible to ever be a real issue? Why would I be interested in the depiction of a society which is so heavily influenced by the weight given to something which will never be important? (this is also the reason why I never cared for Star Trek: it's drama about bullshit, hence drama for the sake of drama. In that sense it's the exact same thing as soap operas.)

This, again, is to some extent very personal*: I either want a properly worked out setting with lots of detail, or I want nothing but an excuse to shoot or hack at some baddies. I certainly don't want to play a game which has some real character development or an important plot going on if that isn't done very well. I just don't want to be bothered with that stuff unless it's genuinely good.

*Of course, the only "objective" characteristic of whether a game is good is whether or not it sells well. Subjective characteristics are far more interesting and can include basically anything. I might want to play games or read books which are either done extremely well or are very simple, but others like games with something of a plot going on but without things becoming too difficult and complex and multifaceted. But I sincerely hope people will at some point stop saying HR made a good point regarding augs and that HR was a proper successor to DX. Whether you like HR or not, I think it's a vastly different game and people should at least think about that.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by AEmer »

See, back when I asked the question, I didn't know you had only played 2 hours - or how far that would get you. I don't know if you spent the first of those hours messing around with the graphics settings as I did, or if you just dicked around at serrif, or if you made it to the factory. Now I know. Here's my problem with what you wrote:
From what I've seen EM seems to have put very little actual thought into HR. Sure, they've brainstormed a lot, mostly about stealing ideas from literally everything that's popular at this moment (like health regeneration and a distinctive art style based on a certain real life art style), but they don't seem to have been thinking through. Not about mechanical augmentations, which are the essential theme of the game nor about anything else, be it characters or setting or anything else
This is blatantly false, and the example I tried to put forward would illustrate it. They've thought about it and come up with a situation which is highly relevant:

A girl living in lower Hengsha, from a poor family, has talent for trading stocks, but even after going through college she can't compete with the other brokers. The other brokers have a biochip implant and augmentations that enable them to peruse more data in a shorter time, and therefore trade more quickly than her.

The overall agility and efficiency of the stock market doesn't appear to have improved at all, so the augmentation arms race is completely arbitrary; the competition is fiercer, but it doesn't benefit anyone...however, it's very expensive to stay in competition now.

So the girl borrowed money from a mobster, and now she's under his thumb for good. She's decided the only solution is to use complicated equipment installed on various rooftops to hide her location and still do her job as a trader. You run around and hack it and pinpoint her location, that's the meat of the quest. Your job is to either retrieve the augmentation without the girl (as I recall it, which would involve killing her obvs.), or get the money the mobster feels he's owed. Alternatively, you can foot her bill this one time, and get the mobster off her back for good (though quite how this is possible without killing him, I don't know...maybe there's a detail I forgot...maybe adam simply claims he'll watch over her?).

This quest is thought through in everywhich way. It illustrates a very realistic scenario; currently, high speed stock trading is also an arms race, and it's destabilizing the markets rather than improving them, inspite of massive costs to the traders. The game humanizes the problem and makes it relateable, and it's at the very least plausible that augmentations would actually give you an edge in this instance.

For making a point about how a free market where competition doesn't improve the value contributed by the market is a bad and destructive thing, for that alone, the developers deserve credit - for humanizing it and making it relatable, they deserve respect. For tying it together with the overarching storyline, that concerns itself primarily with how augmentations should be regulated to ensure that the free market competition in the area isn't destructive? they deserve bonus points.

The quest works on litterally every level as you're playing it, and it continues to make a lot of sense after you've played it and you have time to think it through. There are several such quests in the game.

So you know what? when you haven't played the game, when you haven't seen these things first hand, because apparently it rubs you the wrong way, simply acknowledge that you cannot express yourself fairly. Feel free to say you don't like it, that it didn't do it for you, but don't argue some BS point about how it lacks this or that quality in these general terms you were using. It's confusing, and it seems like it comes from someone with some level of authority on the matter when in fact you have none, and to be honest, I don't see how it contributes anything at all. I certainly am not getting any wiser from reading it, because I can't even relate to the perspective you have from having played just 2 hours of the game.

If you have something specific that relates to what happened during those 2 hours, though, that's fair game, but please, don't talk like you know a thing about what the experience as a whole is like. I'm all for trying to reach a level of consensus, or trying to understand you and whether or not I have it wrong in some way, but you just aren't giving me anything to go on here. It's not that I don't want to consider whether or not this is a proper Deus Ex game, I have. I have spent a large amount of time thinking about the game, and about how I felt it tied in with the first game. Unless you have some concrete input, something specific, a mechanic, a piece of story or art design to challenge what I already think, I don't think I would change my oppinion even if I thought about it for the next 10 hours.
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Re: DX3 reviews?

Post by gamer0004 »

AEmer wrote: A girl living in lower Hengsha, from a poor family, has talent for trading stocks, but even after going through college she can't compete with the other brokers. The other brokers have a biochip implant and augmentations that enable them to peruse more data in a shorter time, and therefore trade more quickly than her.

The overall agility and efficiency of the stock market doesn't appear to have improved at all, so the augmentation arms race is completely arbitrary; the competition is fiercer, but it doesn't benefit anyone...however, it's very expensive to stay in competition now.

So the girl borrowed money from a mobster, and now she's under his thumb for good. She's decided the only solution is to use complicated equipment installed on various rooftops to hide her location and still do her job as a trader. You run around and hack it and pinpoint her location, that's the meat of the quest. Your job is to either retrieve the augmentation without the girl (as I recall it, which would involve killing her obvs.), or get the money the mobster feels he's owed. Alternatively, you can foot her bill this one time, and get the mobster off her back for good (though quite how this is possible without killing him, I don't know...maybe there's a detail I forgot...maybe adam simply claims he'll watch over her?).

This quest is thought through in everywhich way. It illustrates a very realistic scenario; currently, high speed stock trading is also an arms race, and it's destabilizing the markets rather than improving them, inspite of massive costs to the traders. The game humanizes the problem and makes it relateable, and it's at the very least plausible that augmentations would actually give you an edge in this instance.

For making a point about how a free market where competition doesn't improve the value contributed by the market is a bad and destructive thing, for that alone, the developers deserve credit - for humanizing it and making it relatable, they deserve respect. For tying it together with the overarching storyline, that concerns itself primarily with how augmentations should be regulated to ensure that the free market competition in the area isn't destructive? they deserve bonus points.

The quest works on litterally every level as you're playing it, and it continues to make a lot of sense after you've played it and you have time to think it through. There are several such quests in the game.

So you know what? when you haven't played the game, when you haven't seen these things first hand, because apparently it rubs you the wrong way, simply acknowledge that you cannot express yourself fairly. Feel free to say you don't like it, that it didn't do it for you, but don't argue some BS point about how it lacks this or that quality in these general terms you were using. It's confusing, and it seems like it comes from someone with some level of authority on the matter when in fact you have none, and to be honest, I don't see how it contributes anything at all. I certainly am not getting any wiser from reading it, because I can't even relate to the perspective you have from having played just 2 hours of the game.

If you have something specific that relates to what happened during those 2 hours, though, that's fair game, but please, don't talk like you know a thing about what the experience as a whole is like. I'm all for trying to reach a level of consensus, or trying to understand you and whether or not I have it wrong in some way, but you just aren't giving me anything to go on here. It's not that I don't want to consider whether or not this is a proper Deus Ex game, I have. I have spent a large amount of time thinking about the game, and about how I felt it tied in with the first game. Unless you have some concrete input, something specific, a mechanic, a piece of story or art design to challenge what I already think, I don't think I would change my oppinion even if I thought about it for the next 10 hours.
I thought I just wrote specifically that that's not the point. Did you read this: "And it's also the exact opposite of the point I'm trying to make: I'm not saying there weren't enough sidequests, or that there wasn't anything interesting going on, or that the gameplay wasn't good, or even that the plot was bad, because I don't know about any of that". No matter how many examples you give, this is not going to change. I cannot put it differently without simply repeating myself. I'm not saying HR's plot or sidequests were bad. I'm saying that the general theme and its setting were so nonsensical that for me this made everything else (including those properly worked out sidequests) completely irrelevant. Which is basically just a summary of my previous post but apparently you didn't understand it or you didn't read it.

Your example is, ironically enough, a perfect example of this. There's drama, there are moral choices, there's societal tension... But it's all based on a nonsensical principal idea/theme: that is, that traders would somehow need or use chips for trading. The very notion of traders trading at the floor of the Stock Exchange is preposterous. It doesn't work like that anymore. Nowadays, there are teams of econometricians making and improving models; based on these models certain algorithms are generated and computers buy and sell stocks. The fund with the best econometricians (and thus the best models and thus the best algorithms) and the fastest connection to the stock exchange can make the highest profit. People literally don't have anything to do with it.
This illustrates perfectly why the general theme of HR is so wrong: it's not about the people anymore. The american dream has never been more irrelevent. One person simply can't get anything done anymore. There are no more men in sheds developing new technologies. In reality, it's all about the big corporations (an important theme in DX). Nowadays, however, the trend is to emphasis the personal side of things (be it in the news (focussing on personal stories rather than facts) or television (including the news, but also the increase in reality shows, even on channels like the discovery channel). This is not necesarrily bad, it just depends on personal preferences. It's a bad trend if you want to actually know what's going on in the world, but it's great if you rather want infotainment. In any case, people shouldn't pretend it's good way to get to know what's going on in the world.
The same applies for HR. People may like this different approach to mechanical augmentions* (though many people don't even realize the approach is different in the first place) but it is no good for a meaningful, relevant discussion. And I think people should stop saying it is.

It is also the reason why I don't like HR. I didn't stop playing after hours because it was that bad (though the gameplay wasn't very good either in my opinion) but because I just didn't care. I didn't care about hostages or about Adam Jensen or about enemies or about augmentations simply because the setting and theme of HR are nonsensical and thus any choice or idea related to it is irrelevant. I know this is personal though and that many people don't care about this, and I wouldn't want to criticize HR on this (though it means I won't be playing the game and also decreases the extent to which HR is a Deus Ex game). It's the same reason why I generally don't like the moral choice system used in many RPGs. In some cases almost any choice is reduced to a moral choice, ultimately resulting in morality inflation and irrelevancy. But, again, this is a personal preference. Many people seem to like it.

*That is, focussing on the societal change and the influence on common people instead of focussing on big corporations and big government where the personal issues of mech augs are an aside.

P.S. This discussion is already getting "messy" and therefore I doubt whether it will actually lead us anywhere. Also I would like to say that the sidequest itself seems pretty cool.
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