Would you have bought DX:HR if it wasn't Deus Ex?

[Jaedar]

Morrowwind wasn't that good imo, the game was just as broken as Oblivion, just in a different way. I still prefer morrowwinds brokenness though.

[AEmer]

Nope, didn't notice. Which automatically means it's lot better system than "exploring is useless, everything's the same

Not exactly. You, as a gamer, are not a constant. You can't use whatever joy you felt playing morrowind, and contrast with whatever you felt playing oblivion, and use that as a base for comparison. It's easy to fall into this caveat.

Not really. Smart people play the game as intended. In Morrowind that's possible. In Oblivion, you get hardly punished for it.
You complain you have to play like brain-damaged. But only in Oblivion is it required.

I really didn't. I drew a parallel. I know that might not have been clear, but it's what I did.

Funny. I made a Khajiit. I had NO idea what Morrowind was all about. Had pretty much no RPG-experience at all.
And that was the only character I ever had. Never made a new one...

As stated, I never had to do that. I am no super-intelligent being either. You just stick to something and learn to live with it.
I think the only reason why it's "needed" for you is because you are a power-gamer. Regular gamers don't need to remake their Morrowind character EVER.
Oblivion is another though, after you learn that you just made the most horrible issue of actually picking skills you use. Now there is something strange...

It's a good thing you didn't have problems playing in Morrowind...but, no, it wasn't because I was a power gamer.

Morrowind...In morrowind there were a ton og awesome-sounding premade character classes. I loved the names they gave them, and I went with a bunch of hybrid spellcaster, sneaker, fighter ones. No surprise, then, that I got stomped in the early levels when the magic wasn't powerful enough, and I didn't have the hitpoints or damage to slug it out, and I couldn't sneak past anything.

But you bring up a good point. I didn't _have_ to remake my character, I'd just have been relegated to doing fetch-quests for money and using trainers. So really, the reason I remade so many characters was that I really wasn't happy with the results I saw within the first hour or so. I'd either get beat up, or have to live with the (apparent) fact that I'd never be able to do magic well. I was either fundamentally unhappy with my character design, or too weak to do anything.

Of course, from my perspective, there was no way to solve the conundrum, because I didn't understand the levelling system, or that I would be alright further into the game if I stuck to it and just ran from fights. I just knew I was getting crushed at parts where I didn't expect to be crushed, so rather than risk having to stop playing further in, I remade my character.

Then why, instead of doing JUST THAT, you start a new character instead?

Puzzling things out in an RPG means a lot of characters. Otherwise you won't really understand the system. If you don't spend a few hours getting to know the character system of fallout 1, you're going to play it for 10 hours, and then the vault will die and you'll have lost the game. These days we don't expect to have to recreate characters that are more suited for the game, but back in the day, it was par for the course.

Oh, you silly powergamers.
You DO realise most of us wouldn't bother with such a system? And guess what... it doesn't break your Morrowind character any way what-so-ever.
You only make it so hard on yourself because of your urge to maximise. That doesn't mean the system is hard to understand at all, or counter-intuitive. If you just go with the flow, instead of manipulate it like you do.
So what's the better choice? Allow both, suiting both gamers? Or take away a part of the system so the option falls away for one part of the gamers (you powergamers in this case)? It would have been fine if they didn't make it horribly flawed in the progress, forcing us ALL to be powergamers. And me, I rather play natural. Hence my dislike for the Oblivion system.

You know, that pisses me off. I'm _not_ a powergamer. I try to make an argument on the merits of the design of the system, and I need to get a label thrown on me because I illustrate it with an example?

I didn't play it this way, for what its worth. I wanted to illustrate how empty of a phrase "the game punishes you for doing this" is within Morrowind _or_ oblivion. Both games punishes everything that isn't insane _already_.

The better system would be one that's actually _balanced_. Morrowinds - and oblivions - aren't balanced in any way.

Funny, I never saw this in Morrowind. Did in Oblivion though... without the mud crabs that is. And it was horrible.

And it was horrible in Morrowind too.

How about the number one goal should be to MAKE IT FUN. Appealing to the lowest commonoter (or whatever it's spelled, ask Jonas) doesn't usually generate the best games. Heck, even YOU as powergamer would be unhappy with a completely of appeal stripped system, why are you trying to promote it?
Forcing the players to 'act natural' in a game is going to backfire horribly anyways, anyone can tell you that. Especially with powergamers like you around willing to break any system for the best character. The only way to actually reach what you want is remove stats al-together, and just make it a first person adventure/shooter. You want that?

As I said, I'm not a fucking powergamer.

And no, that's false. Completely false. Look, I'm sure you mean well, defending Morrowinds design, such as it was. But coming out of left field with assertions like "anybody can tell you that", or deciding by analyzing the system and it's concequences I'm trying to break it...that's not good for anything. An assertion of truth is no real argument, it's just pointing out you have that specific oppinion.

Either way, I can prove you're wrong by counterexample. There's a great mod for morrowind that changes the system such that it works the way it was intended to work, and such that it doesn't punish you for playing in a normal fashion. It _can_ be done, because it _has_ been done. That makes your assertion that anybody can tell me it'll go horribly wrong especially silly.

I'm sorry for patronizing you as I'm about to, but what if I hadn't had a counterexample? Your point, which is wrong, would be left standing. I'd have to argue that you can't just assert that anybody can tell me something is horrible and therefore it is. So if you have a point, make sure to back it up with something substantial. A concrete person saying it'll turn out horrible, with some authority on the subject, that would work. He'd be wrong too, of course, but it would be better. Maybe you should stop after you write and go over your points before you post, to make sure you're well reasoned.

Or you could just wait for somebody to try to deconstruct them (but be carefull, some of them might be patronizing assholes...) I suppose, but I suggest looking at it more closely yourself

[Hassat Hunter]

Not exactly. You, as a gamer, are not a constant. You can't use whatever joy you felt playing morrowind, and contrast with whatever you felt playing oblivion, and use that as a base for comparison. It's easy to fall into this caveat.

I am not. In Morrowind exploring is fun and rewarding. In Oblivion, it's not. A pretty big con for a freeform game, wouldn't you say?
I do...

You know, that pisses me off. I'm _not_ a powergamer. I try to make an argument on the merits of the design of the system, and I need to get a label thrown on me because I illustrate it with an example?

Yes, yes, you are. Otherwise you wouldn't try to milk it out by getting 3x x5. You realise yourself that it never intended to happen anyway. And certainly not ALL THE TIME.
It's like the "Max HP at level up" feature of Baldur's Gate II. Not intended, but suiting powergamers, so they no longer have to re-load upon level up till they got the max. And instead of making it an Oblivion feature, they just scrapped it all together. Cause if it works partially, remove it entirely (BioWare philosophy, see ME2).

I didn't play it this way, for what its worth. I wanted to illustrate how empty of a phrase "the game punishes you for doing this" is within Morrowind _or_ oblivion. Both games punishes everything that isn't insane _already_.

Morrowind doesn't punished you for breaking the system. It doesn't punish you for living by the system. Not getting x5 all the time never is punished.
Playing reguarly with Oblivion IS punished however. Which is kind of the point... that's a BAD design.

The better system would be one that's actually _balanced_. Morrowinds - and oblivions - aren't balanced in any way.

Balance is overrated. Not to mention each gamer plays the game they want. If they balance it for the powergamer, the regular player suffers. If they balance it for the regular player... well... you get most modern RPG's with their piss-poor difficulty level.
And apparently you rage against a system that lets you do whatever you want...

And it was horrible in Morrowind too.

I've played with the skills I picked. Perfectly fine. No grinding needed. I could avoid difficult monsters if needed, explore quitely if I wanted. It was all good. Eventually got OP though.
I did that with Oblivion, and before I knew it EVERY bandit wore Daedric. And where-ever I went on the world the thoughest monsters were. And because I never visited a portal and got upgrade-blocks, my tools were crap. And I was murdered for that...
Yeah, definitely the worst in Morrowind...

As I said, I'm not a fucking powergamer.

Then stop making every point you make from that standpoint. If your not, why not make non-powergaming standpoints toward Oblivion or Morrowind? I haven't seen any.
All I see is "you need to grind this", "maximise that", "get the perfect build" etc.
Completely missing our point that playing REGULARLY in Morrowind works. In Oblivion? It works against you.

Look, I'm sure you mean well, defending Morrowinds design, such as it was.

All I am trying to bring to your attention is that from a regular players point-of-view, Oblivions system is way more horrid than Morrowind.
And that's just the system. Thanks to the silly AI, lesser and less meaningful dialogue, less interesting art directory, pointless exploration, cave redundancy and I could go on makes for me Oblivion severly inferior to Morrowind.
I sincerly hope Bethesda fixes that for Skyrim, but I probably wait for the budget bin. Was pretty thrilled for Oblivion (got the CE), and was majorly let down.

Either way, I can prove you're wrong by counterexample. There's a great mod for morrowind that changes the system such that it works the way it was intended to work, and such that it doesn't punish you for playing in a normal fashion. It _can_ be done, because it _has_ been done. That makes your assertion that anybody can tell me it'll go horribly wrong especially silly.

Morrowind doesn't. But okay, link that mod. What does it change the system to, eh?
Also, there are probably a LOT more mods for Oblivion to change the level-up system. What would the reason for that be???

but what if I hadn't had a counterexample?

The vague mention of a mod that apparently fixes everything... magically forcing people to play "as they should"...
Ehh... rather weak so far.

I'd have to argue that you can't just assert that anybody can tell me something is horrible and therefore it is.

But fortunately you can tell me about mods which are "wonderful", merely because YOU say so, and therefore it is? Brilliant!
No, really, I rest my case. CLEARLY your word supercedes mine because you said so. Sorry for doubting that.
And I am not really sorry for patronizing. That's just not me...

So if you have a point, make sure to back it up with something substantial.

We already did. But apparently you didn't listen as you still think that the system is the same, even if leveling "properly" in Oblivion is a curse instead of a blessing, as level ups in RPG's usually are supposed to be.
But then again, you sure back up your points; "a mod"...
And I am still not quite sure what's so bad about NOT getting 3 x5's or leveling up in Morrowind that made the system equally worse in your eyes. Unless it's the new monsters appearing. It isn't, is it?

A concrete person saying it'll turn out horrible, with some authority on the subject, that would work. He'd be wrong too, of course, but it would be better.

Oh... so much wrong in this sentence.
"A person with authority on the subject... well, obviously that can only be someone that agrees with me."
You're making it even better and better. Not even blame our 'incompetance' but putting yourself on the 'authority' chair.

Or you could just wait for somebody to try to deconstruct them (but be carefull, some of them might be patronizing assholes...) I suppose, but I suggest looking at it more closely yourself

Go ahead... make my day.
I'll hapilly look forward on how you will "patronize" me for this. Maybe next time you put in even more complains that I should provide proof you apparently don't seem to need?

Who knows? Turn in next time for... "Would you have bought DX:HR if it wasn't Deus Ex?"

[AEmer]

Oh... so much wrong in this sentence.
"A person with authority on the subject... well, obviously that can only be someone that agrees with me."
You're making it even better and better. Not even blame our 'incompetance' but putting yourself on the 'authority' chair.

Do you understand that I said that specifically referring to you blatantly asserting that "forcing players to act natural in a game is going to backfire horribly, anyone can tell you that"?

That I'm not referring to the overall argument?

I have the rest of my post written out, but till I know you're crystal clear on this, there's no point continuing.

[Duke Floss]

I'm about two thirds of the way through Human Revolution - I definitely feel the Invisible War influence heavy in this title, but it has been a far better attempt at a DX followup. I still prefer the original DX - maybe due to nostalgia, maybe due to it being a better game - I can't say for sure. Would have I bought this game if it wasn't a DX title - yes absolutely, in fact it would have probably scored better with me had it been just a spiritual successor game as opposed to a prequel. I do enjoy seeing some references to the first games characters in emails and such, but it just doesn't feel connected for me. I'm having a blast though - the level design is great and it is very fun to play.

As for Morrowind - I can't play it vanilla anymore. I usually load up with Morrowind Overhaul - and then add a few mods I personally enjoy (an edited copy of Combat Hits which makes the combat so much easier to deal with). It definitely still has issues - but Oblivion is terrible, I played through it one and a half times (once through on the PC, and about 10 or 12 hours into the 360 version) other than an improved (but still terrible) stealth system and the better combat, Oblivion is a waste of time. Skyrim looks like its going to be epic though.

[justanotherfan]

Would have I bought this game if it wasn't a DX title - yes absolutely, in fact it would have probably scored better with me had it been just a spiritual successor game as opposed to a prequel. I do enjoy seeing some references to the first games characters in emails and such, but it just doesn't feel connected for me.

That's probably what earns the most interest to the game, and the most criticism.

[bobby 55]

Skyrim looks like its going to be epic though.

Yes it does.
I've never played Oblivion or Morrowind, nor do I intend to. I'll leave them to you RPG-philes.

I just hope DX: HR is the fore-runner of more FPS/RPG titles. Not just shooters with a little RPG added. I still love you anyway Borderlands.

[Dragon]

I just hope DX: HR is the fore-runner of more FPS/RPG titles. Not just shooters with a little RPG added. I still love you anyway Borderlands.

Isn't DX:HR actually just that... an FPS with little RPG added?

[bobby 55]

I just hope DX: HR is the fore-runner of more FPS/RPG titles. Not just shooters with a little RPG added. I still love you anyway Borderlands.

Isn't DX:HR actually just that... an FPS with little RPG added?

Considering that you can play as murderously or as passively (leaving bosses out of the equation) as you choose; your choices, and in some cases non choices, having consequences; the ability to play your character as a douche, a saint, or somewhere in between; I'd argue it's way more an RPG than lots of titles with the FPS/RPG classification. It's no less a role player than Alpha Protocol in my opinion.

[Dragon]

I just hope DX: HR is the fore-runner of more FPS/RPG titles. Not just shooters with a little RPG added. I still love you anyway Borderlands.

Isn't DX:HR actually just that... an FPS with little RPG added?

Considering that you can play as murderously or as passively (leaving bosses out of the equation) as you choose; your choices, and in some cases non choices, having consequences; the ability to play your character as a douche, a saint, or somewhere in between; I'd argue it's way more an RPG than lots of titles with the FPS/RPG classification. It's no less a role player than Alpha Protocol in my opinion.

Not really. If it would be it would allow different play styles without penalizing all but one which DX:HR doesn't. You can play lethal, but it sucks (little exp). You can try play as a skulker, but it sucks even more (no exp). Or you can play it the only way they want: non-lethal take-downs and stun-gun (more exp than your sorry ass can carry)... just that is boring due to poor AI and being no challenge since take-downs and stun-gun are auto-win in every possible situation (except Barrett but that's a different story).

[bobby 55]

Not really. If it would be it would allow different play styles without penalizing all but one which DX:HR doesn't. You can play lethal, but it sucks (little exp). You can try play as a skulker, but it sucks even more (no exp). Or you can play it the only way they want: non-lethal take-downs and stun-gun (more exp than your sorry ass can carry)... just that is boring due to poor AI and being no challenge since take-downs and stun-gun are auto-win in every possible situation (except Barrett but that's a different story).

Whether they penalize you or not you still have the choice though. In my first playthrough I mostly avoided any kind of confrontation where I could. I felt as though I was an infiltrator, and it was a challenge and entertaining for me. Admittedly I missed lots of stuff which I've since found in my murderous run. I didn't rack up an abundance of XP but I still got through the game.

[Dragon]

Not really. If it would be it would allow different play styles without penalizing all but one which DX:HR doesn't. You can play lethal, but it sucks (little exp). You can try play as a skulker, but it sucks even more (no exp). Or you can play it the only way they want: non-lethal take-downs and stun-gun (more exp than your sorry ass can carry)... just that is boring due to poor AI and being no challenge since take-downs and stun-gun are auto-win in every possible situation (except Barrett but that's a different story).

Whether they penalize you or not you still have the choice though. In my first playthrough I mostly avoided any kind of confrontation where I could. I felt as though I was an infiltrator, and it was a challenge and entertaining for me. Admittedly I missed lots of stuff which I've since found in my murderous run. I didn't rack up an abundance of XP but I still got through the game.

What did you see that you did not in the first run? It's night impossible to miss anything with the levels so linear and everything shouting in your face when you get near. It's not like there is any path you can not use in the first run since there is no limitation (no mutual exclusive augs or items which are scarce). No limitation, no choice... as you get to see everything. Major problem with DX:HR... no limitations and no choice, just relying on players to artificially skip half of the game as otherwise there is no justification for a second run.

[bobby 55]

What? In the first mission if you don't go immediately to the helicopter when Sarif tells you, the hostages die. You do go staight to the helicopter and not find the hostages they still die. You find the hostages, disarm the bomb, they live, and Malik's dialogue leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. Choose to speak differently to people the help they may have given you doesn't happen, or does if you speak nicely to them instead. You help someone out they reward you, if not you don't even know there was a reward to be had in the first place. Then there's the four different ways you can try to complete an objective. If that doesn't mean there's replayability then I better look up the definition.

[Dragon]

What? In the first mission if you don't go immediately to the helicopter when Sarif tells you, the hostages die. You do go staight to the helicopter and not find the hostages they still die. You find the hostages, disarm the bomb, they live, and Malik's dialogue leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. Choose to speak differently to people the help they may have given you doesn't happen, or does if you speak nicely to them instead. You help someone out they reward you, if not you don't even know there was a reward to be had in the first place. Then there's the four different ways you can try to complete an objective. If that doesn't mean there's replayability then I better look up the definition.

This mission had been created for this. And that's more or less the only mission having any timing requirements (if we don't count Malik which is nearly as annoying as boss fights). Otherwise there is only one other mission where your conversation choice actually has an influence later in the game. Otherwise it's just getting the reward or not which hardly qualifies as "choice". And handling something in four different ways doesn't exist. That's like saying HL2 has choice because you can kill a Combine with a crowbar or a crossbow. If this is your idea of choice then any game out there has choice. Choice needs consequence or limitations otherwise it's not really a choice in the Deus-Ex sense of way just a different weapon to use. It doesn't alter the experience much as you can switch at any time between all possibilities. There really is no sense of choice as Deus-Ex had it where you had limitations and consequences down the line not just around the next corner if at all.

[fantsu]

This thread is SO off-topic!!!!
3 last pages have been about morrowind and oblivion and israel....
OMG.
Please stop it.


(And everyone knows that both of those games were "GOD AWFUL consolish games" after the excellent Daggerfall... I never enjoyed the games after I saw the brand new Morrowind on my friends XBOX, I always thought that Daggerfall was the last part.)