Would you have bought DX:HR if it wasn't Deus Ex?

[AEmer]

:D

I was beginning to think a daggerfall player popping by and hating on how dumbed down morrowind was, was overdue

Just to confirm I wasn't completely off base on the Oblivion difficulty, I went and found a lets play of an oblivion player trying his hand at morrowind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt5YKmP7 ... ideo_title

The poor sod was going about it really sensibly but he got completely owned by the first quest fight in the game, and he had to actually stop and read the manual before he could move onward. Then he went and picked flowers for the next 6 hours, finally returning...he would kill one npc, then rest, rinse and repeat, because there was absolutely no way for him to proceed faster.

Which is sortof the point; he had to go grind _a lot_ in order to proceed anywhere at all, right off the bat. Fortunately grinding in morrowind comes in the shape of doing silly little quests and looting imperail garrisons, so in a sense it works, but it is real f'in hard to get in.

I suspect that if he hadn't played Oblivion first, he would've needed a game guide.

But it's also obvious that he is really getting into the world, and having a blast.

The most priceless points are that he has no idea what major and minor skills mean, that he accidentally steals something and still gets released, and how frustrated he looks as he gets killed in the first quest fight for the fifth time because and enemy mage punches him to death with his fists.

@ Dragon
*spoiler*
I found myself really engrossed in the chip choice. Fortunately I didn't connect the dots with the games intro, so I had to go with my instincts, and now I can realize that they wanted me to make a conscious decision about the augmentations - do you embrace them, or do you reject them. Are you paranoid and afraid of a back door into your own body, or do you take the risk?

The choice is fundamentally parallel to the entire problem they pose about the merger of the human body and technology. I found it worked very well.

But I also thin that the fundamental quality Deus Ex provides us, is the ability to handle problems in distinct fashions. There's a lot of ways to handle the liberty island mission - and there's a lot of ways to get to a certain weapons cache, too. You can sneak through the sewers. You can fight through the sewers. You can go by the rooftops. You can go in on foot. You can make distractions. You can avoid killing anyone. You can kill everyone.

And it's true, there is a way that the game rewards you the most; silent, nonlethal takedowns of every enemy combatant without any of them ever noticing you. It's also one of the most difficult approaches.

But compare and contrast with Morrowind, where you desperately need to be stronger for a long time during the beginning, and where you can't proceed with the main quest unless you make some very specific character design choices or unless you do a lot of sidequests. There, you can find yourself _needing_ to be more powerful, and having to very consciously work towards that goal.

In Deus Ex, you never need that combat experience. If you hack everything, you get more than enough experience. If you explore everything, you do too (you get considerably more praxis from exploring than you can ever get from combat xp).

The only difficult fights are the boss fights, and if you're not interested in combat gameplay at all, you probably put the difficulty slider on "tell me a story" mode, where I suspect you'd have an easy time with the bosses.

So if we assume you constrain yourself to what you "need", the game doesn't really reward you for nonlethal takedowns, because you don't need what it peddles. It gives you a reward with no impact. With this knowledge, on subsequent playthroughs, there's no reason not to ignore it if you want to. So at least on subsequent plays, you have free reign.

On the first playthrough the issue is more iffy. Some players are bound to feel like they're being punished for not getting all the xp, and allow their actions to be predicated by this, because they don't really know if they'll need it, so better get it just in case. I'm not sure this is necessarily that many players, nor that these players constitute the core of the target audience of the game; but for them, the first playthrough will feel much more constrained. For the rest, however, I think the amount of choice should be apparent to them. Certainly most reviewers feel absolutely awed by the amount of choice they're presented with, as did my friends who played the game, as did I for that matter.

But honestly, storyline ramifications? I'm not really interested in those from a Deus Ex title. I want choice in how I handle the missions, that's the important bit.

[justanotherfan]

I'm annoyed that the target audience of DX3 isn't DX1 fans, but times change.

I don't know about storyline "ramifications", but thinking hard and drunk about it, I generally find that gameplay gets in the way of a good story. I get frustrated, cheat my way through, and then hate a game because "tell me a story" gave me "Aliens attacked, and you killed them, the end". Unobtrusive natural and fun gameplay is important for immersion, but I want to leave with something more than occupied time; if I'm just clicking, I'm bored. Ramifications in a series aren't crucial, but the story itself is.

Sorry again if I'm missing the point; the Morrowind and etc references go over my head.

Odd that I haven't asked, but how's DX3's story? Is it just "Company makes biomods, wow scary biomods! There's a competitor!", or is it complex or twisty or unpredictable or intriguing? I know it would be spoilers, but on a scale of Quake4->Crysis->Doom3 to Bioshock->DX->TNM, where is it floating?

[Jaedar]

The Story is entirely predictable and you will see the plot twists coming miles before Jensen poorly acts out his surprise at them. I found it to be quite poor, especially towards the end when it goes full out retarded and plot convenience extreme.

[Jonas]

Let me just counter-balance Jaedar here by saying while he's somewhat right, he certainly is being more negative about it than I would. (Tempted to add "as usual" here.)

DXHR has a very strong theme, and nearly everything in the game is based around that theme. BioShock is probably a good equivalent, with its objectivism thing, except thankfully DXHR's theme of transhumanism is far less polemic, it's more like the game is having a debate with itself (and you) than making an argument. You will see the plot twists... quite far away, but you're unlikely to predict the whole plot right off the bat.

There's a lot of potential bad guys and a lot of apparent good guys, but none of them turn out to be that simple. The game does also throw a few red herrings at you here and there, and you go places and talk to people who aren't directly related to the main plot. Overall, it's a strong story, not as complex as Deus Ex's, but more thematically focused. Its main problem is that like TNM, it's not very good at foreshadowing, but unlike TNM, it gives you too much information ahead of a new plot development rather than too little. Especially if you bother to read the emails. The result is that, as Jaedar put it, "you will see the plot twists coming miles before Jensen poorly acts out his surprise at them".

Oh and I should add it's generally better acted and probably on average better written than DX1 (sorry Sheldon).

[Jaedar]

Oh and I should add it's generally better acted and probably on average better written than DX1 (sorry Sheldon).

You might be right there.

Of course, averages mean little, especially in a game like deus ex when you can skip the bad parts and listen to the good parts imo. And I found Deus Ex's forays into philosophy a million times more interesting than HR's transhumanism thing.

Basically, this is what I feel about HR's take on it: It's shallow and most of the time only talks about surrounding issues. It so very rarely approaches transhumanism itself, and mainly talks about people being mad about it, and people becoming addicted to the anti-rejection drugs, neither of which is inherent in the issue itself. It never once made me go "hmm...." and reconsider my stand on the issue. Some people might think this is good as it is probably how it would blow over in real life, but I don't like it.

Let me just counter-balance Jaedar here by saying while he's somewhat right, he certainly is being more negative about it than I would. (Tempted to add "as usual" here.)

Everything is shit, but nobody is mad about it.

[Jonas]

Of course, averages mean little, especially in a game like deus ex when you can skip the bad parts and listen to the good parts imo.

That's an interesting point, and I'm tempted to agree with you. But in reality I find that it's a trade-off: Deus Ex discusses more complicated topics in more intellectual ways, but it doesn't make them work very well with the plot and it doesn't ever really fit those conversations very naturally into the dialogue. The Morpheus conversation works pretty well because it's just some random outdated AI you come across in a hidden room, but a lot of those other bits of dialogue... I mean a secret agent stopping to discuss global sociopolitics with a bartender in a scummy dive in Hong Kong? It's pretty spurious. A lot of Deus Ex reads like a novel, whereas DXHR is more like a proper screenplay. It's not necessarily better, it's just a different way of writing. I prefer DXHR's approach, but I fully sympathise if you prefer DX1's.

Basically, this is what I feel about HR's take on it: It's shallow and most of the time only talks about surrounding issues. It so very rarely approaches transhumanism itself, and mainly talks about people being mad about it, and people becoming addicted to the anti-rejection drugs, neither of which is inherent in the issue itself. It never once made me go "hmm...." and reconsider my stand on the issue. Some people might think this is good as it is probably how it would blow over in real life, but I don't like it.

I agree with you on this. Thinking back on Deus Ex... I'm not sure it was that much better in this respect, but I do agree DXHR could've gone substantially further in discussing its themes than it did.

[Dragon]

I was beginning to think a daggerfall player popping by and hating on how dumbed down morrowind was, was overdue

Personally I cen't get much started with Daggerfall but this is mainly due to the crappy controls. This though is due to the game having done in DOS age. Nevertheless I think one could have done a better job in UI and controls there. I gave up after the first dungeon because I was fighting constantly with the controls and not enemies. That said missing a giant rat in front of you 9 out of 10 attacks in the beginner dungeon just isn't fun.

The poor sod was going about it really sensibly but he got completely owned by the first quest fight in the game, and he had to actually stop and read the manual before he could move onward. Then he went and picked flowers for the next 6 hours, finally returning...he would kill one npc, then rest, rinse and repeat, because there was absolutely no way for him to proceed faster.

The problem is not Morrowind but the player being an Oblivion player. You need no manual for Morrowind to play it. Here again we have the case of the power-gamer problem. He tries to maximize anything. Of course you need some time (in any game) to figure out how to max things out but it's totally off target to say a game is difficult if you try to power-play it from the word go. Him doing power-grinding disqualifies him already for any valid opinion about the game.

Which is sortof the point; he had to go grind _a lot_ in order to proceed anywhere at all, right off the bat. Fortunately grinding in morrowind comes in the shape of doing silly little quests and looting imperail garrisons, so in a sense it works, but it is real f'in hard to get in.

I started Morrowind with different character builds to see how it plays out including a custom character (Ryukaissen... I leave it up to you to figure out why I picked this one). A never had any troubles with fighting (you actually have to step back to dodge attacks if you don't want to hope for a good D20 roll). I always had never problems with my skills (no stats grinding, no +5 hunting). You know, I just "played" my character. I used his strength and avoided situations where his weaknesses kick in. Power-gaming and power-grinding are possible in Morowind but they need commitment to push the system and they especially real have nothing to do with regular play.

I found myself really engrossed in the chip choice. Fortunately I didn't connect the dots with the games intro, so I had to go with my instincts, and now I can realize that they wanted me to make a conscious decision about the augmentations - do you embrace them, or do you reject them. Are you paranoid and afraid of a back door into your own body, or do you take the risk?

That part has been totally weak. If you didn't see it coming that the chip is a trap even with the game showing it to you with a huge neon sign blinking obnoxiously then I can't help you... and it especially doesn't make it a good story twist of any kind. And eventually it's not a decision which influences the game. It's another of these DX:HR pseudo-choice things. Maybe good idea but utterly bad execution.

And it's true, there is a way that the game rewards you the most; silent, nonlethal takedowns of every enemy combatant without any of them ever noticing you. It's also one of the most difficult approaches.

You get it wrong. The game rewards you for running up to fully hostile enemies pressing a single button to auto-win take-down them in a way it never fails, poses no challenge and can be done by any brainless HL2 zombie while gaining double the exp than a skillful player and tons more exp than a professional skulker. This is plain bad game design at its best.

But compare and contrast with Morrowind, where you desperately need to be stronger for a long time during the beginning, and where you can't proceed with the main quest unless you make some very specific character design choices or unless you do a lot of sidequests. There, you can find yourself _needing_ to be more powerful, and having to very consciously work towards that goal.

Bullshit. Sorry to say it that way. Morrowind does NOT force a build on you. I started the game with various builds ranging from mage over sword-fighter to stealthy thief and it all works well. Did the same in Oblivion and except one single build you get fucked over before you get any further than a couple of quests.

The only difficult fights are the boss fights, and if you're not interested in combat gameplay at all, you probably put the difficulty slider on "tell me a story" mode, where I suspect you'd have an easy time with the bosses.

That's another good example of why DX:HR sucks. If you don't want combat then you should be able "to play like this" not having to mess with a fucking slider to "set it". Such a difficulty slider should be about the "overall" difficulty of the game not deciding if certain choices are plain out punished by a punch in the balls.

So if we assume you constrain yourself to what you "need", the game doesn't really reward you for nonlethal takedowns, because you don't need what it peddles.

Incorrect, it does. You get the exp scissor no matter if you play normal or comb the area. It's an inherent design problem which can't be just solved by artificially skipping half of the game just because the developers fucked up hard the design.

On the first playthrough the issue is more iffy. Some players are bound to feel like they're being punished for not getting all the xp, and allow their actions to be predicated by this, because they don't really know if they'll need it, so better get it just in case.

Which shows again how the design sucks. If you infuse this fear into the player then you are doing something utterly wrong. You teach the player from the very first enemy that the developer want you to play one way and only this one way. This is entirely different than Deus-Ex where you got from time to time a bonus for stuff which is not directly required for the game like exploration and then it feels like an actual reward and not like a constant masher hit on your head labeled "you do not fucking play the fucking game the fucking way we fucking want it (signed the developers)".

But honestly, storyline ramifications? I'm not really interested in those from a Deus Ex title. I want choice in how I handle the missions, that's the important bit.

Playing a Deus-Ex game without interest in the story? Then I'm not astonished DX:HR appeals to you with the lackluster story.

[AEmer]

"
The problem is not Morrowind but the player being an Oblivion player. You need no manual for Morrowind to play it. Here again we have the case of the power-gamer problem. He tries to maximize anything. Of course you need some time (in any game) to figure out how to max things out but it's totally off target to say a game is difficult if you try to power-play it from the word go. Him doing power-grinding disqualifies him already for any valid opinion about the game.
"
It's pretty clear you didn't look at him playing and you're just going off based on what I wrote. That's ok. Lets plays are boring, but it does showcase my point.

He's very clearly not a powergamer. He's not powergrinding. He's regular old "doing sidequests because he's too weak to advance the main quest" grinding. In other words, first quest enemy he ever sees whoops his ass. He doesn't gain a level in the first 6 hours of play.

And you do need a manual if you want to know what sanctuary does =P

"
Bullshit. Sorry to say it that way. Morrowind does NOT force a build on you. I started the game with various builds ranging from mage over sword-fighter to stealthy thief and it all works well. Did the same in Oblivion and except one single build you get fucked over before you get any further than a couple of quests.
"

I present to you exhibit a:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9liFLN4E ... fu#t=4m30s

His build is a breton mage, everything is standard. He's cold-casting, so he knows nothing of morrowind other than whats in the manual.

Also, I didn't say morrowind forced a build on you; I said only very specific builds would be able to advance the main storyline beyond this fight (without quickloading the fight over and over, anyway), without grinding sidequests to get money for items.

"
That's another good example of why DX:HR sucks. If you don't want combat then you should be able "to play like this" not having to mess with a fucking slider to "set it". Such a difficulty slider should be about the "overall" difficulty of the game not deciding if certain choices are plain out punished by a punch in the balls.
"
As I recall the difficulty slider specifically says it adjusts combat difficulty? why should it do something other than what it says?

"
Incorrect, it does. You get the exp scissor no matter if you play normal or comb the area. It's an inherent design problem which can't be just solved by artificially skipping half of the game just because the developers fucked up hard the design.
"
Who said anything about skipping half the game? What? Huh?
I said you can skip the takedown xp because it won't matter. Collecting it would be like filling your fridge with more milk than you can possibly drink before it goes bad. I said on the first run, well, you never know if you're gonna have visitors who'll need milk, so I can see why some people would want to stock up to unreasonable degrees even if it spoils their fun, but on all subsequent runs there is absolutely no reason for trying to get that milk. You don't need it, and if you don't have fun getting it, don't get it.


"
Which shows again how the design sucks. If you infuse this fear into the player then you are doing something utterly wrong. You teach the player from the very first enemy that the developer want you to play one way and only this one way. This is entirely different than Deus-Ex where you got from time to time a bonus for stuff which is not directly required for the game like exploration and then it feels like an actual reward and not like a constant masher hit on your head labeled "you do not fucking play the fucking game the fucking way we fucking want it (signed the developers)".
"
It sucks that you feel that's what it's communicating...but what about people who hate hacking? Aren't they getting hit over their heads for playing the game in a way the developers don't want it played whenever they encounter a terminal, by that logic? Since hacking gives xp, surely the developers must want you to hack everything. Right?


"
Playing a Deus-Ex game without interest in the story? Then I'm not astonished DX:HR appeals to you with the lackluster story.
"
Oh, I like the story; but the story of Deus Ex is pretty damn linear. Only minor details change, like whether a character does in the 4th or the 6th mission, whether you get to talk to a scientist or your brother near the end, whether you get to hear JC burn Walton by calling him an ugly son of a bitch...At least if you care to compare with invisible war, which has a much less linear (but much worse) story.

Storyline _ramifications_ was what I questioned the importance of, not the idea of a good story.

"
That part has been totally weak. If you didn't see it coming that the chip is a trap even with the game showing it to you with a huge neon sign blinking obnoxiously then I can't help you... and it especially doesn't make it a good story twist of any kind. And eventually it's not a decision which influences the game. It's another of these DX:HR pseudo-choice things. Maybe good idea but utterly bad execution.
"
I decided it probably was a trap...but I wasn't sure. And it does influence a boss fight? Isn't that enough?

What choice in Deus Ex has a bigger impact, story wise?

[Dragon]

He's very clearly not a powergamer. He's not powergrinding. He's regular old "doing sidequests because he's too weak to advance the main quest" grinding. In other words, first quest enemy he ever sees whoops his ass. He doesn't gain a level in the first 6 hours of play.

Which I've never seen, not even remotely, when I played using different builds. The game gives exp for using a skill not distributing level up points. It works the same as Jagged Alliance does. Do you consider this game crap?

And you do need a manual if you want to know what sanctuary does =P

Who gives a damn about sanctuary? You don't need it. I played all my builds without using it. You don't know what it's useful for? Don't use it. No problem. You can play as good as before.

His build is a breton mage, everything is standard. He's cold-casting, so he knows nothing of morrowind other than whats in the manual.

What's your point?

Also, I didn't say morrowind forced a build on you; I said only very specific builds would be able to advance the main storyline beyond this fight (without quickloading the fight over and over, anyway), without grinding sidequests to get money for items.

Again I did this boss fight with all my different builds without a problem. You simply have to actually "role-play" and accept the weaknesses of your build and utilize the strength of it. It's an elementary role-play rule (one the DX:HR by the way didn't understand at all).

As I recall the difficulty slider specifically says it adjusts combat difficulty? why should it do something other than what it says?

It's not the problem that it does what it says... it's the problem WHAT it does.

Who said anything about skipping half the game? What? Huh?

You by saying you should not collect xp but skip it.

It sucks that you feel that's what it's communicating...but what about people who hate hacking? Aren't they getting hit over their heads for playing the game in a way the developers don't want it played whenever they encounter a terminal, by that logic? Since hacking gives xp, surely the developers must want you to hack everything. Right?

Yes. because if you try to find codes you get ball-kicked rewarded with nothing while somebody "playing by the book" (to use a term they get too fond of using all the time) hacking anything is fully augmented before the end of the day. It's totally unbalanced and they want only one play style. Choice is a pretext they use.

Oh, I like the story; but the story of Deus Ex is pretty damn linear.

Every story is, that's a technical problem (since real AIs playing DM don't exist yet). The problem is if the story itself is shallow as hell.

I decided it probably was a trap...but I wasn't sure. And it does influence a boss fight? Isn't that enough?

Decided? Sorry for the rofl but the game tells you this big way ahead of time. It only misses displaying a huge flashy text across your HUD which would be only marginally more of a hint. Concerning the boss battle the influence really is not important since the boss battles are fucked up already. Cosmetic at best.

[AEmer]

Which I've never seen, not even remotely, when I played using different builds. The game gives exp for using a skill not distributing level up points. It works the same as Jagged Alliance does. Do you consider this game crap?

I haven't played Jagged Alliance. I quite enjoyed morrowind. That's not the point. I have a video of a guy doing everything by the book. He's roleplaying everything like a champ. And the game opens a can of whoopass on him because he didn't start out grinding mageguild quests in balmora, but instead tried to proceed with the blades questline.

What's your point?

That he should be able to get into the game about as easily as one can, when you look at it as a self-contained entity.
He wasn't able to play it "easily" at all.

It's a counterexample; your example of your builds is all well and good. I trust that there's a number of builds that won't have trouble with that fight. My point is, there's a number of builds that _will_ have trouble with it, and I have linked one such experience in my above post for your convenience if you don't trust my word.

But a standard roleplayed breton mage, which isn't any kind of odd combination, is very difficult to proceed with on the main storyline. Contrast with a reguard fighter who will tear through this part.

Again I did this boss fight with all my different builds without a problem. You simply have to actually "role-play" and accept the weaknesses of your build and utilize the strength of it. It's an elementary role-play rule (one the DX:HR by the way didn't understand at all).

That's what he did. He got whooped. You may have been able to on your own builds; that doesn't mean you can extrapolate to every build.

It's not the problem that it does what it says... it's the problem WHAT it does.

Ok. So a difficulty slider must make it easier or harder to play in all fashions; it must scale evenly.
One game that does this. Name one bloody game where it's equally harder to play it in all possible ways! Then we'll talk about how reasonable that definition is. As an example, realistic DX is almost the same when it comes to sneaking, but a lot harder when it comes to gunplay.

Who said anything about skipping half the game? What? Huh?

Combat xp makes up about 10% of the total xp pool. That's not half the game; that's 10% of the augmentations, augmentations which you probably wouldn't even use more than once or twice because they'd be your least preffered ones. I guess you'll just have to do away with the subdermal armor and pop the difficulty slider one level up. Or do without sprinting twice as fast. Or always taking the stairs on your way down and not just hopping off of buildings. Point is, you're not missing out on much.

If anything, there's more exclusive choice, which is exactly what you wanted.

Mind you, not talking about the first playthrough, talking about subsequent ones where you know you'll be alright even if you don't maximize your xp.

Yes. because if you try to find codes you get ball-kicked rewarded with nothing while somebody "playing by the book" (to use a term they get too fond of using all the time) hacking anything is fully augmented before the end of the day. It's totally unbalanced and they want only one play style. Choice is a pretext they use.

I guess you also need to explore absolutely everything, since there are experience rewards for that too? Or be hit over the head?

*spoiler on the rest*

Decided? Sorry for the rofl but the game tells you this big way ahead of time. It only misses displaying a huge flashy text across your HUD which would be only marginally more of a hint. Concerning the boss battle the influence really is not important since the boss battles are fucked up already. Cosmetic at best.

Yes, despite your ridicule I can admit that I didn't know. As I said before, I didn't remember what they said about the satelites being in position in the intro. I half suspected someone was hacking me, and taking the new chip would stop that. Several of my friends ended up taking the chip; Jonas did too. Apparently it's more obvious to your sharp mind than the rest of us if you think it's laughable.

[Jonas]

Ok. So a difficulty slider must make it easier or harder to play in all fashions; it must scale evenly.
One game that does this. Name one bloody game where it's equally harder to play it in all possible ways! Then we'll talk about how reasonable that definition is.

TNM

At least the goal was to balance the adjustments of the individual difficulty sliders on each preset level such that stealth and combat are equally easier or harder when you pick an easier or harder preset. I can't promise we succeeded, but we made a valiant effort.

If that doesn't count, maybe Thief? IIRC the difficulty options in Thief add or remove enemies, which affects both stealth and combat - but combat is already so insanely hard that it probably doesn't matter most of the time, you're boned either way.

Oh! Also Hitman. Again, I don't know if the balance is quite right, but the difficulty changes your health, which affects combat, but it also changes how vigilant the enemies are, which affects the stealth. It also does some things that affect everything, such as limiting the savegames at your disposal or giving you less information during the mission. I only really really wish you could customise your difficulty level by adjusting these settings individually

[dx_blaster]

poll wont work for me, no matter what i choose I'll get:

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and the result view is also brocken for me:

Would you have bought DX:HR if it wasn't Deus Ex?
Yes 0% 0% [ 0 ]
No 0% 0% [ 0 ]
Half-price maybe 0% 0% [ 0 ]
You may select 1 option

Total votes : 0

the question is, is the error on my side (firefox broken) or on server side...

WTF IE wont work with offtopic/forum page at all:
as i know i didn't change ie behavior at all (i dont use ie very often)

[AEmer]

TNM

Wow. That response is made of win.

Oh! Also Hitman. Again, I don't know if the balance is quite right, but the difficulty changes your health, which affects combat, but it also changes how vigilant the enemies are, which affects the stealth. It also does some things that affect everything, such as limiting the savegames at your disposal or giving you less information during the mission. I only really really wish you could customise your difficulty level by adjusting these settings individually

I did not know that about hitman. Is it in blood money? Do you know if it affects all styles of play evenly? I'd suspect some things get a lot harder than others as you ramp up the difficulty.

I've certainly never noticed difficulty level impacting anything but my combat experience, but I haven't played thief. Or maybe I'm really forgetful and it somehow has, either/or.

And I would love those difficulty settings to be all over all my games. Oh my god I would be so much happier with dragon age and dragon age 2 if I could decrease the amount of combat.

Ahem, anyway. My point was, nobody does this. That was wrong. Ok, so some people do this. I guess I'll have to go into it then.

So Jonas, since you've been helpful, and no good deed goes unpunished, lets find dragons quote and compare with your system!

That's another good example of why DX:HR sucks. If you don't want combat then you should be able "to play like this" not having to mess with a fucking slider to "set it". Such a difficulty slider should be about the "overall" difficulty of the game not deciding if certain choices are plain out punished by a punch in the balls.

If one of your TNM beta testers complained that he didn't want combat, but insisted on playing on setting his combat difficulty slider to a hard level because he should be able to "play like that" and not have to "set it", what would you say to him?

Would this also hold if you had _only_ a combat difficulty slider (that was clearly labeled as such), instead of several sliders?

Also, apologies for trolling you

[AEmer]

poll wont work for me, no matter what i choose I'll get:

Wish I coulda stopped you right there. Polls are broken. No clue what's up with the IE thing.

[Dragon]

I haven't played Jagged Alliance. I quite enjoyed morrowind. That's not the point. I have a video of a guy doing everything by the book. He's roleplaying everything like a champ. And the game opens a can of whoopass on him because he didn't start out grinding mageguild quests in balmora, but instead tried to proceed with the blades questline.

I didn't either and I had no troubles because I role-played. It's like in real life: you have to your your strong abilities and avoid having to use what you are bad at. If somebody needs a manual for this than I feel sorry for him.

That he should be able to get into the game about as easily as one can, when you look at it as a self-contained entity. He wasn't able to play it "easily" at all.

So with other words you want washed down crappy games of today which are piss easy because they a dumbed down to the level of consoles? It's well known that older games provided a higher challenge (in even older games even insanely high). Saying a game is crap if it doesn't allow you to 1HKO a boss the first time you see it is moronic. Is Super Mario crap because you die a couple of times at the first bowser until you get how to beat it? Of course not. RPGs are (if done correctly) about character build and this includes how the build changes over time. If you could 1HKO a boss right from the beginning where is the sense in that? On one side people moan about RPGs which are piss easy and if one steps up the difficulty to a sane level people moan it is insane. In Morrowind you have to think how to tackle a boss early and be skilled to do so. Of course different builds give a different experience. If this would not be case we had the boring DX:HR where everything is the same and nothing really matters. Builds have to feel different but in a way it is not rendering them impossible like in Oblivion. Certain tasks are easier with one build than with another but one build is not totally underpowered or a fail compared to others. That's like if I would complain in real life having to deal with a heavy weight boxer going down when I tries to box with him. Obviously if that's not my profession I've to be smart and come up with another plan. If people need a manual for this and even then can't come up with a plan then they are totally playing the wrong type of game. Go play FPS games where you can sit behind a box and shoot brainlessly at anything that moves.

Combat xp makes up about 10% of the total xp pool. That's not half the game; that's 10% of the augmentations, augmentations which you probably wouldn't even use more than once or twice because they'd be your least preffered ones. I guess you'll just have to do away with the subdermal armor and pop the difficulty slider one level up. Or do without sprinting twice as fast. Or always taking the stairs on your way down and not just hopping off of buildings. Point is, you're not missing out on much.

Combat does not make 10% out of it, definitely not. And you showed yourself right now how there is no replay value in DX:HR as you can get everything you don't even need. There's nothing to see after the first run. It also doesn't play different if you try to do something else. Nothing is limited or mutual exclusive neither augs, path nor story.

If anything, there's more exclusive choice, which is exactly what you wanted.

Exclusive choice? DX:HR has no exclusive choices... it has not even noteworthy regular choices.

Yes, despite your ridicule I can admit that I didn't know. As I said before, I didn't remember what they said about the satelites being in position in the intro. I half suspected someone was hacking me, and taking the new chip would stop that. Several of my friends ended up taking the chip; Jonas did too. Apparently it's more obvious to your sharp mind than the rest of us if you think it's laughable.

No, not that far back. The game tells you straight to the face right at the time and place the callback is brought to your attention. Multiple people (including civs on the streets and pritchard) tell you all you need to know... if you haven't figured it out until then by your own. Granted I'm a freak what goes for detective games but that one was so obviously hinted to you in the very same time and place you get the information that it's hard to miss that one. Okay, I admit, if you are an American then I can understand why you do everything the government tells you without thinking