One small example....

[Jaedar]

Well, I'm talking about melee - not firearms.

Well, you were. Until you inferred that running out of prod ammo somehow meant stealth was impossible.

I just think that making the player carry one of those as a backup is a bit superfluous. Why not just have the takedowns?

Because having the player carry a melee weapon when inventory space is limited enforces choice, which is good. I like that. Choice isn't choice if you can have everything.

A super soldier who can lift up crates taller and heavier than himself, who can't throw a punch?

Different muscle I think? Also, punching harder will just make the bones in your hand break more easily. Especially when the guy you're punching is wearing kevlar or other bodyarmor like most enemies in DX. Like I said, I can see not including HtH combat.

[shadowblade34]

I was just informed of this in Deus Ex:

When Paul sends you to send the transmission, the building is full of friendly UNATCO troops. After you send the transmission, Walton Simons contacts you and says he's ordering the troops to kill you, because he doesn't have the patience for the killswitch to work.

But if you silently take out all the troops while they're still friendly, without getting caught at it, Simons tries to contact them, can't, and gets mad

----------
Now I have to replay the game for the 596th time.

[Cybernetic pig]

I was just informed of this in Deus Ex:

When Paul sends you to send the transmission, the building is full of friendly UNATCO troops. After you send the transmission, Walton Simons contacts you and says he's ordering the troops to kill you, because he doesn't have the patience for the killswitch to work.

But if you silently take out all the troops while they're still friendly, without getting caught at it, Simons tries to contact them, can't, and gets mad

.

This reminds me of "first day on the internet kid".

565 playthroughs and you only just found this? You should have..GOD level of knowledge on Deus Ex by now

[shadowblade34]

I was just informed of this in Deus Ex:

When Paul sends you to send the transmission, the building is full of friendly UNATCO troops. After you send the transmission, Walton Simons contacts you and says he's ordering the troops to kill you, because he doesn't have the patience for the killswitch to work.

But if you silently take out all the troops while they're still friendly, without getting caught at it, Simons tries to contact them, can't, and gets mad

.

This reminds me of "first day on the internet kid". )

565 playthroughs and you only just found this?

I think I have, but I can only faintly remember what Simons says. I've killed them all while they're friendly on every playthrough except the first, but I've been caught every time. Simons still gets mad.

It might be the same message when you take them out silently, but I have to play it again just to make sure.

[Cybernetic pig]

It might be the same message when you take them out silently, but I have to play it again just to make sure.

That is dedication

@DaveW, Just so you know I think Human Revolution was a great game and did not suffer from bad design in most cases, but Deus Ex I see as having near perfect design and it is something I would like to see other developers taking notes from.

And I apologise for being an ass, next time i'll put forward an actual argument instead of sweeping, generalised statements.

[DaveW]

Well, I'm talking about melee - not firearms.

Well, you were. Until you inferred that running out of prod ammo somehow meant stealth was impossible.

I used the prod as an example but I don't think I ever said it was the only non-melee weapon for stealth. Both games have silenced firearms.

I was referring to what happens when you run out of ammo (for the prod / silenced weapons / the taser-like weapon in HR) and have to resort to melee combat. Although, this doesn't actually happen that often in HR because the silenced pistol acts like a real pistol - unlike the stealth pistol in DX which is next to useless. I mean - I'm well aware a 9mm round to the head isn't necessarily fatal but it's at least debilitating. If you're running at someone, being shot in the head is probably going to stop you - so that again is a much needed improvement.

Because having the player carry a melee weapon when inventory space is limited enforces choice, which is good. I like that. Choice isn't choice if you can have everything.

This is a little off-topic for this argument : but IIRC you don't like HR merging the augs/skills/some items? The design decision that actually enforces more choice than Deus Ex? So enforcing choice is fine as long as it's in DX, but as soon as HR does it it's bad?

I'm all for enforcing choice - which is why I prefer HR's system.

Different muscle I think? Also, punching harder will just make the bones in your hand break more easily. Especially when the guy you're punching is wearing kevlar or other bodyarmor like most enemies in DX. Like I said, I can see not including HtH combat.

I'm pretty sure that the enemies in DX weren't wearing Kevlar on their face.

But if you silently take out all the troops while they're still friendly, without getting caught at it, Simons tries to contact them, can't, and gets mad

Don't think I've ever got that..but maybe I didn't kill all of them (or do it silently) - I'll have to give that a go next time.

@DaveW, Just so you know I think Human Revolution was a great game and did not suffer from bad design in most cases, but Deus Ex I see as having near perfect design and it is something I would like to see other developers taking notes from.

And I apologise for being an ass, next time i'll put forward an actual argument instead of sweeping, generalised statements.

I get that, and I respect you believing the design philosophy behind DX was better than HR. I happen to think HR's design built successfuly on DX, rather than detracting from it - but I still think Deus Ex's design is more good than bad. I certainly agree more developers could take note from it.

[DDL]

The stealth pistol is actually incredibly deadly: it has a massive DPS just because the fire-rate is so high. It does burn through your ammo though.

As for enforcing choice, HR doesn't enforce any choice re: melee, because you can ALWAYS use a takedown. You don't have to choose, and in fact you can't NOT choose to have melee takedowns available.

I have to say, I kinda agree with jaedar here: I didn't feel like HR was any more restrictive on choices than DX, and in many ways it was less restrictive. You could have every aug, for instance (no "defense or spydrone"/"speed or runsilent"/"vision or target" here).

Regarding choice, it's also a fairly complicated argument, because it's multitiered. You can have "number of options" as a variable, but also "percentage of those options you can have", and even "extent of option overlap", "reversibiliy of options", and so on.

So for augs, HR had fewer options, and you could have all of them. DX had more options, but you couldn't have all of them. IW had fewer options, you couldn't have all of them, but you could reverse your decisions.

Which system is 'better' is largely a question of personal preference.

It's...not very clear cut.

[DaveW]

The stealth pistol is actually incredibly deadly: it has a massive DPS just because the fire-rate is so high. It does burn through your ammo though.

Depends on the point of comparison I guess - compared to the standard pistol, the stealth pistol feels like a pop gun. One of my favourite tactics with the pistol is to run up behind people and shoot them in the face when they turn round - usually an instant kill. The stealh pistol takes at least two shots (or more if you don't have a high pistol skill, because super-augmented agents can't shoot straight in the DX world.)

As for enforcing choice, HR doesn't enforce any choice re: melee, because you can ALWAYS use a takedown. You don't have to choose, and in fact you can't NOT choose to have melee takedowns available.

I have to say, I kinda agree with jaedar here: I didn't feel like HR was any more restrictive on choices than DX, and in many ways it was less restrictive. You could have every aug, for instance (no "defense or spydrone"/"speed or runsilent"/"vision or target" here).

Regarding choice, it's also a fairly complicated argument, because it's multitiered. You can have "number of options" as a variable, but also "percentage of those options you can have", and even "extent of option overlap", "reversibiliy of options", and so on.

So for augs, HR had fewer options, and you could have all of them. DX had more options, but you couldn't have all of them. IW had fewer options, you couldn't have all of them, but you could reverse your decisions.

Which system is 'better' is largely a question of personal preference.

It's...not very clear cut.

The 'choice' with melee is that you can choose to upgrade it or not - if you don't upgrade it, you have to leave a gap between doing them because it drains power.

The reason I would say HR is more restrictive on choice (at least initially - since near the end you can have pretty much every aug which I think is a mistake) is because of the cross-over of choices in DX. Like the example I've brought up before about the aqualung / swimming skill / rebreather - basically, Deus Ex is not enforcing a choice there. I agree it's a complicated argument to be involved in though and ultimately down to personal preference.

[DDL]

>Rebreathers take up a whole inventory slot, one use only, don't enhance swim speed. And you have to find a rebreather.

>Aqualung occupies a whole aug slot, can be used constantly if BioE permits, doesn't enhance swim speed. And you have to find the cannister. And not put in the alternative (better) aug. Or throw the whole thing away since neither aug is that great.

>Swim skill is already there, can be upgraded relatively cheaply, uses no power, also enhances swim speed.

In all honestly, while you're certainly not forced to choose between swimming/not swimming,

A)one choice is clearly fucking useless (yes you, aqualung: fuck you and the horse you swam in on)
B)nearly every large body of water has a handy rebreather nearby
C)the choices are additive, not one or t'other: max skill and aqualung + rebreather = ludicrous underwatertime
D)there isn't really enough swimming in the game to make this a relevant decision anyway

But I take your point.
The question here is then: are there any points in HR where such a choice becomes relevant? I can't think of a moment unique to HR where I've thought "I want to do X but I can't because I don't have Y".
Sure there were "I want to sneak over there but I don't have cloak" moments, but you get those in DX too. Plus in HR (if you saved praxis points like me) you can more or less just "open aug menu, install cloak, done", which you can't in DX (though you can of course activate a suit of thermoptic camo, if you have it).

I think I probably like the realism implicit in DX: having multiple things that do the same job feels much more like the real world, whereas having "tool X for Job Y! No tool X: no Job Y" feels more...gamey.

"I, the nanoaugmented super-agent, have inbuilt ballistic armour beneath my dermis! However, everyone else in this entire world does not, and those poor fucks need bulletproof vests. Which is why there are bulletproof vests. Oh hey: I can use my skin armour AND bulletproof vests? OH FUCKING YES."

Compared to

"I, the mechaug, have inbuilt ballistic armour beneath my dermis! However, all the other non-mechs in this entire world do not, and those poor fucks need bulletproof vests. Which is why there are bulletproof vests. Can I have a bulletproof vest? No? Oh. Is it a no-mechs thing? Hang on, those mechs over there are wearing armour. What's so special about those fuckers? Fine, screw you, I guess I'll just have to hide behind this sofa then."

And the same could be said for techgoggles, thermoptic (amusingly, thermoptic camo is actually better than cloak), rebreathers, and so on.

So yes, DX is massively more clunky and excessively redundant in places, but it feels more real, given that the world is massively clunky and excessively redundant. It's almost like..you need to see a suit of ballistic armour and think "HAH FUCK NO, I GOTS ARMOURSKIN, BITCHES" before you can really appreciate that you DO have armourskin. (though personally I'd take the armour anyway if I had a free inv slot )

[Jonas]

The question here is then: are there any points in HR where such a choice becomes relevant? I can't think of a moment unique to HR where I've thought "I want to do X but I can't because I don't have Y".

Maybe I misunderstand, but I can think of several augs that did just that. The Icarus Landing System and the Wall-punch aug are the most obvious ones, they're the ones that explicitly open new routes through the level if you have them. In my first playthrough I got the wall-punch aug early on, but a couple of times I couldn't make effective use of it because it was succeeded by a very long fall that I couldn't survive without Icarus, so I had to double back and find another way around.

It's definitely very gamey, but I must admit I prefer the straight-forward simplicity of DXHR over the messy overlap of DX1. Though I do miss the way world building imposed itself upon the gameplay mechanics. Lol PS20.

[DDL]

You could also shoot through those weak walls, or put mines on them and shoot them (which I really liked, tbh: multiple solutions to the same problem ftw).

But my point was not "I can't do this because I don't have that", it was "I can't do this because I don't have that..in HR, but this situation wouldn't happen in DX".

I.e. not having jumpylegs/icarus was an equal impediment to both games, if long suicide falls were your thing.

Don't get me wrong, I loved HR, and I can only hope more games in future follow that model, but yeah: "lol PS20" exemplifies the silly delight I derive from DX's worldbuilding.

[shadowblade34]

Going back to the stealth pistol for a moment, I found it to be the best weapon in the game. I would save all of my weapon upgrades for it and it would become a silenced 1 shot kill rapid fire sniper rifle. With super fast reload.

[Cybernetic pig]

>Rebreathers take up a whole inventory slot, one use only, don't enhance swim speed. And you have to find a rebreather.

>Aqualung occupies a whole aug slot, can be used constantly if BioE permits, doesn't enhance swim speed. And you have to find the cannister. And not put in the alternative (better) aug. Or throw the whole thing away since neither aug is that great.

>Swim skill is already there, can be upgraded relatively cheaply, uses no power, also enhances swim speed.

In all honestly, while you're certainly not forced to choose between swimming/not swimming,

A)one choice is clearly fucking useless (yes you, aqualung: fuck you and the horse you swam in on)
B)nearly every large body of water has a handy rebreather nearby
C)the choices are additive, not one or t'other: max skill and aqualung + rebreather = ludicrous underwatertime
D)there isn't really enough swimming in the game to make this a relevant decision anyway
)

Damn you DDL for wording it better than I.

Its great because all those choices have consequences.

Swim skill costs skill points
Aqualung (it is not useless!) takes an inventory slot until installed and you cannot have the other aug option.
rebreather takes an inventory slot.
Regen Aug to counter drowning costs biocells.
Attempting to swim without any could result in death.
Not taking any of the above and ignoring bodies of water results in missing some goodies & alternate paths.

My attempt at balancing would be- Rebreather takes 2 slots And 1 or two less to be found in the game, regen aug nerf, swim skill costs even less skill points or converted into athletics like in Shifter & Biomod.

>
I think I probably like the realism implicit in DX: having multiple things that do the same job feels much more like the real world, whereas having "tool X for Job Y! No tool X: no Job Y" feels more...gamey.
)

Not only that it is just plain fun having depth in choices of how to build your character, and also is great for replayability. Even though the system is slightly flawed, but it is so deep it is gonna be flawed.
Human revolutions aug system was more flawed Than the RPG systems in Deus Ex combined imo: Less choice in how to build your character, have nearly all augs in one playthrough, "tool X for Job Y! No tool X: no Job Y"... that is about it really. Well not including the method of how you earn them (XP grind-fest, penalised playstyle).

[Marcelo]

Gameplay is not the aspect that makes DX better than HR or HR better than DX. Both games have good gameplay elements. But HR fails in pretty much everything else DX didn't. HR is another display of the developers abilities and talents. The game is constantly forcing you to see the what the developers where capable of. Even the NPC in HR are just pawns made to point you how great the storyline is. They do not have a life of their own. The only ones who do seem to have one are the ones who are plot related to the side missions and that is mediocre.

DX was never pretentious with their concepts and ideas. They have mentioned they did in on purpose. Meanwhile HR does exactly the opposite, everything made was made to point the player to the prowess of the developers and to force you to see their implemented gameplay elements.

DX is a game based in a reality that touches the futuristic concept. The original idea was to make the game as realistic as possible. They decided to add more futurisc fantasy elements later on to make the game more attractive to the masses. HR is opposite to this. HR is a fantastical game (Very Square Enix) that touches reality. The developers never followed the core concepts of the first Deus Ex.

The Art direction is the worst part in DXHR. Not because it was bad. But because the Art director made it to attract attention to himself. Art Direction should always compliment the game, not in a egoistical manner, not the game to compliment the art direction (Very Sqare Enix). They went even further and made cut scenes that doesn't move the story forward but to simply showcase the art direction and it went overkill.

DX the original game is never pretentious with game play or options. It just throws a bunch of stuff and let you decide which one to carry and some of them are just plain unnecessary. This was made on purpose. HR is a good game but the developers never followed the core concepts of the game. Simply because no developer wants to live in the shadow of the other developer. If the game has success it has to be because of the new elements implemented by the developers. No one wants to share credit.

[Cybernetic pig]

Interesting take, and I mostly agree, however gameplay was a factor too, for me anyway.