ggrotz wrote:It's one thing to argue that the way something is depicted is not faithful. I bring up Gunther because I believe the HDTP model renders him differently than the other one. I'll explain by using Homer Simpson. It's one thing that the art was updated like in your screen shots. It's another that the update turns Homer Simpson from a fat balding man into a thin muscle bound adonis. It doesn't happen.
Are you able to offer any actual details behind these distinctions? Information that people can use to form their own judgements?
But to a large extent, there is nothing remarkably different about the HDTP assets than the standard ones. Of course, the problem you have in updating low-res visuals is that certain artistic liberties have to be taken to fill in the details which may or may not be outside the realm of other things, which you slammed like the certificates in New Vision (further addressed below).
I couldn't find the bit where you talk about the certificates in New Vision.
But more or less, your total sum of "criticism" amounts to "I think the artwork in HDTP is shit." Fine, you don't like it. Several others happen to like it. It's just like any kind of art in the world. Note your comparison I quoted below, which pretty much says it.
If I made a mod that gave JC Denton snappy one liners, added strip bars to every level and a function to pee on people ala Postal it would be a shitload of work - if I gave it away for free it would not automatically mean it was good and worthy of celebration.
And yet it seems you have no way to disagree with this statement or explain why issues in New Vision such as the certificates are issues.
And here you demonstrate you have absolutely no idea how open-source projects work, rendering much of what you have written to be moot.
Visual theory and project management don't work in Open Source Theory? I'm sure this will come as a shock to the people who worked on UFO: Alien Invasion, also the numerous Vampire the Masquerades: Bloodlines patches.
I believe Jonas once described it as "herding cats", and it's not far from accurate. When you don't have any effective control over your team members (i.e. you're not paying them), you really can't control the work that they produce.
In that scenario nobody is responsible for the outcome and nobody should be praised when it turns out well, or blamed when it turns out bad. I however, think it's rather insulting to pretend that fan projects are essentially a crap shoot.
In volunteer efforts, all you can do is take what people are willing to do to the best of their ability, say "thank you" and move on. You can cast a vision as to what a playable mod is going to be or whatever the project happens to be, but you can't stop people from walking with their stuff if you don't give them a voice. Then if you just take their submission and call it "shit" and delete it, there's no guarantee the work can ever be redone by another and you create an immense lack of goodwill with anyone else that might be providing work. Not to mention any reactions the community might bring during development, which is one reason why HDTP hasn't gotten as many submissions as it might have otherwise. Note: When goodwill is your only currency, you have to be zealous in guarding it.
Wait are we talking volunteer efforts here or open-source? Because those are not the same thing and you should not conflate them.
Paizo's Pathfinder is a commercial project using an Open Source system (D20) made by Wizards of the Coast. Both of those are for profit companies with budgets. Super Meat Boy is an indie game made by two dudes who agreed to joint ownership and worked together due to a shared vision. There are countless projects out there made by a single person and given out for free.
Also while you are correct that saying "it's shit, do it again" will result in people not working for you - this applies to paid professionals as well. Hence why I wrote an essay on the visual theory and factors that lead me to believe that HDTP and NewVision are not arbitrary updates to the graphics, and hence their flaws should be considered as well as their benefits.
Other people are free to disagree, counter with examples they think contradict this, question or argue with a theory of their own - but I really don't see the benefit of claiming that all criticism that doesn't equate to "it's the best ever, use it all the time" is automatically code for "it's shit".
Another good way to lose good will is to spoil the work of some by setting it alongside the work of others. If you have a team of three people with different tasks - the people who work on the engine, mechanics, and AI are probably going to be a little upset if they find out the remaining person who was supposed to work on aesthetics made the intro and general game so eye-gouging that nobody took it seriously. Likewise if the graphics guy re-invents whole levels and finds out that nobody bothered to play to them because the game crashed so often and the AI was impossible to deal with - probably not going to score high on the good will.
It's herding cats because there is no formula to success, you have to adapt your own approach as best you can and try to keep everything together. Not just attack everyone who criticizes it and tell them it's their fault things are hard.
While coding bounds are more common, due to the nature of the job (there's really only one definition of "spell check" for instance), you really can't apply similar things to art work, especially in a volunteer environment. Most people aren't going to offer "shit" (which you seem to think HDTP is), but most artists are going to tell a producer for a volunteer mod to go fuck off and take their stuff if said producer does what you propose. Take note, there are 3 in this thread, and at least 4 on this board who have much more experience in such matters as you. Unless there's something you're not telling us?
There's a lot of things I'm not telling you, mostly because I consider it rude to barge onto a forum and post an essay on things people don't care about and that don't help anyone (information about myself) when you could post something that might be interesting and useful to people either now or in the future.
Generally speaking I don't care for HD mods/remakes (for all the reasons above) and I certainly don't care for the idea that this one automatically adds 50 quality points to DX by virtue of being there.
You've made this abundantly clear. As was said up above, why do you have such an axe to grind that you come here and keep at it when everyone quite clearly knows your opinion by now? As for other legitimate criticisms (the nonsense Chinese and TNM ad in New Vision, the character models in HDTP), don't you think those haven't been fleshed out after three years that you need to come with your all-knowing wisdom and tell us how the world should work?
I tend to believe that it is considered polite to back up one's opinions with information so that people can assess whether they agree, disagree, partially agree or don't know but want to go look up more information before they form an opinion of their own.
Children are usually taught that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they shouldn't lash out at others for that reason. Eventually, they realize that "opinions cannot be argued as such, but facts cannot be argued under any circumstances!" and thus the eternal cycle of "I think that [x]" "That's just your opinion" "No, it's a fact!" "No, it's not!" starts and lasts until their deaths.
These days, the Internet is packed to brim with YouTube Superstars™ trying to present themselves as objective and unquestionable, thus (naturally) arguments have broken out as a result. There's nothing special about these people AND you may choose to like, hate, or verb them in any way you want.
I would say that's where most of this is coming from. I think that screen shot I put in the other thread is pretty illustrative of where "facts" lie in such a thing ("Wait there's this open area in the airfield and I can't open the gate and explore! Waaah!", too bad it repeats itself in DX and about every other mod out there). A lot of the reaction is coming from more a function of attitude than anything related to any real quality issues. Interestingly such attitudes come with the rise of platforms like Youtube and the like where idiots that happen to be entertaining get their asses kissed (hey, it's PEWWWWWDIEPIE!) and then believe their own hype. Indeed, Kim has the right to his own opinion, but everyone else has the right to theirs, too, including calling him in certain matters.
You are of course, correct. However, in the spirit of productive conversation could we perhaps focus on the topic of this thread rather than opinions of one another?
This one is indeed confusing, and I'm not arguing that all of HDTP resources are great, but it does add over the vanilla. Looking at the original, it's been made pretty obvious by a few parties that it's modeled after a .410 pump action shotgun
(closest image I could find).
A 12 gauge shotgun (just checked the flavor text to confirm) is modeled off a .410? What?
Pretty sure it's a hybrid of the Remington Model 870 with a verticle foregrip
and a Franchi SPAS-12
because they're iconic shotguns (both 12 gauge) and they wanted it to look futury.
While it looks better, the problem with it is a "nonsense" kind of one akin to what Winchen is saying (rightly) about Revision itself (starting with the sight on the end of the barrel which would be gone if it was a genuine sawed-off shottie, as while it's a common shotgun, the problem is what is depicted is *not*).
Also that's not my family name so I don't know why you insist on typing it like that.
Someone like Jonas, Trestkon, or FastGamerr who have actually done mods with new texture content could comment on this with more authority. All I can do is point at what seems to be happening in the forum posts I've read, without knowledge of the back-channel chatter.
So wait, why are you lecturing me like you are the authority?
How do I not know there are items back there if I can't go back there and look? Of course the obvious ultimate "honeypot" is Liberty Island being closed off to you in future missions - Carter's armory is another example, which happens to have ammo and other things. But need I recall the argument of Winchen's was that "it exists and I can't go explore it" more than anything of a functional state that has any real concern.
Here's an idea - just copy paste my forum handle (wincenworks). Double click to select, then Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. Boom. Done.
Also, yes, you do need to recall the argument before you can so defiantly criticize it. What part of Sam Carter's armory led you to believe that you could stack boxes and climb over the top? What part of Sam being the Quartermaster
and hence responsible for distributing UNATCO supplies as per policy, orders and his own discretion led you to believe you could just ask him to sell you stuff? Did you even notice what side of the cage Sam is on?
DevAnj wrote:Sam Carter's armoury doesn't have ammunition or visible items in the first three times you go to UNATCO HQ besides the repairbot
2x Crates, 2x 10mm Ammo, 2x Medkit and a nanokey.
Okay, so seriously? Do you never actually play the levels - just open them up in the editor? Because that explains a whole lot about Revision.