Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

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Salk
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Salk »

DevAnj wrote:

Another alternative is to remove the GEP guidance system altogether.
Wouldn't mind that; I never found it particularly useful and it always felt more like a novelty feature taken from Invisible War. The laser guiding on the other hand, I do like, and find more useful and practical for most situations.
I never used the GEP gun in any other capacity than a means to blow off static objects the way I'd do with a granade. Combat-wise is of no use to me and the guiding system feels so much an over-the-top addition I have no need for.
Last edited by Salk on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote:Actually, there's nothing stopping you from applying that to HDTP and vanilla weapons.
Indeed there's not, and I have thought of it before.

It was brought up here because it would resolve the GEP gun guidance issue while supporting the ability to detach scopes as defined in Scope Detachment Concept 1, and it's just cool and allows for deeper weapon modding.

Another alternative is to remove the GEP guidance system altogether.
I really like the concept, but I just don't like the one mod kit provides different functionalities to different weapons. I know it goes against how all the other mod kits in the game behave, but at least each type of mod kit all contained the same contents.

If for example you created a unique mod kit for each weapon, that provided something more substantial than generic mod-kits. And then only allowed 2 - 4 to randomly appear in any given game then I would be all for it. In fact this is basically how I would like it.

I think the GEP Gun Guidance System should just be another attachment completely separate to scopes or the above suggestion. It doesn't even have to be a scope either. Simillar to the Grenade Launcher attachment to the Assault Rifle and Assault Shotguns.

You can have islands of functionality that do not conform to how these generic mod kits behave, and not affect the game at all. But I think that you should definitely keep HDTP and vanilla weapons functionalities regarding mod kits and the like exactly how you have been doing, with that choice permanence and all that. However I would like to do something different, that does not exactly conform to those strict principles you find awesome and should be afforded the freedom to provide that.

Salk wrote:
DevAnj wrote:

Another alternative is to remove the GEP guidance system altogether.
Wouldn't mind that; I never found it particularly useful and it always felt more like a novelty feature taken from Invisible War. The laser guiding on the other hand, I do like, and find more useful and practical for most situations.
I never used the GEP gun in any other capacity than a means to blow off static objects the way I'd do with a granade. Combat-wise is of no use to me and the guiding system feels so much an over-the-top addition I have no need for.
Yeah would have to agree about the use of the GEP Gun here, but I also use it for robots, and clumps of infantry too.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Salk wrote: I never used the GEP gun in any other capacity than a means to blow off static objects the way I'd do with a granade. Combat-wise is of no use to me and the guiding system feels so much an over-the-top addition I have no need for.
Over the top, perhaps, but your perception of its value is not shared by me. You can guide rockets around the map and blow shit up as in Invisible War and that's a lot of fun, but of course most just end up blowing up doors and the occasional slow-moving bot with normal aiming.

Ultimately, it's there, it's an option, and it's more valuable than what a generic scope provides. You just opt not to use it and use the GEP in the tried and true way. And that's fine.

There's no immediate need for any scope or particular build choice in DX. The game can be completed non-lethal with a very limited tool set remember.
Mortecha wrote:If for example you created a unique mod kit for each weapon, that provided something more substantial than generic mod-kits. And then only allowed 2 - 4 to randomly appear in any given game then I would be all for it. In fact this is basically how I would like it.
Considerably inferior gameplay-wise for the sake of clinging on to a minor realistic detail, but still probably better than HR's approach.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote:If for example you created a unique mod kit for each weapon, that provided something more substantial than generic mod-kits. And then only allowed 2 - 4 to randomly appear in any given game then I would be all for it. In fact this is basically how I would like it.
Considerably inferior gameplay-wise for the sake of clinging on to a minor realistic detail, but still probably better than HR's approach.
Not at all. I think that the all upgrades in one box is considerably inferior. Plus I would also like to make different upgrade containers for each of them, simillar to HR. Making just one upgrade mod kit would just be illogical and boring.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

If it's so important to you that the boxes are unique and the execution is not unrealistic, maybe there is an alternative.

What makes it so vitally good gameplay-wise is the player gets to choose what weapons to apply the upgrade to, but can't choose them all, and nor can they back out of the choice and apply that upgrade elsewhere once they've committed to it. Same principle of all DX upgrades and all the Immersive Sims.

So an alternative would be to make a shop/multiple shops that cumulatively sells all the unique upgrades, but the prices are so steep you can never afford more than two. It's pretty biased towards money though and the current GMDX economy is pretty good as it is, but that's not to say things cannot be rearranged. Personally I'm not completely fond of the idea but it is a viable alternative.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:If it's so important to you that the boxes are unique and the execution is not unrealistic, maybe there is an alternative.

What makes it so vitally good gameplay-wise is the player gets to choose what weapons to apply the upgrade to, but can't choose them all, and nor can they back out once they've committed to it.

So an alternative would be to make a shop/multiple shops that cumulatively sells all the unique upgrades, but the prices are so steep you can never afford more than two. It's pretty biased towards money though and the current GMDX economy is pretty good as it is, but that's not to say things cannot be rearranged. Personally I'm not completely fond of the idea but it is a viable alternative.
Haha yeah you could have something like a self serve weapon store, but if the prices are so steep, how can that business be profitable to then justify it's existence? You would think you would pick them up from various armories you find yourself in. Like the MJ12 Facility you get imprisoned in should definitely have one. Or a really high profile hidden safe for another, perhaps in the Sub Base or Vandenberg. But when the level loads, the actual weapon mod that will be present will be picked at random.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Oh I'd much prefer weapon mods scattered in logical locations, but you don't like the universal mod idea.
Haha yeah you could have something like a self serve weapon store, but if the prices are so steep, how can that business be profitable to then justify it's existence?
I don't think attentive realism behind the economy is important. Prices are almost always dictated primarily by gameplay in the vast majority of games. But of course preferably it shouldn't be too unrealistic. Nonetheless I'm talking two to three grand steep (variable based on the mod itself). Typical of rare, useful items in DX to be around that price such as thermoptic camo, and the overall value of one of these mods would likely rival that of the camo reasonably enough.

Also with these prices, hypothetically you'd be able to buy up to say four of these mods, but then you wouldn't be able to afford anything else from all the other many vendors. That'd add worthwhile choice. The golden rule is you shouldn't be able to get them all/fully mod all your weapons in a single playthrough, though. So no more than three or four mods should be feasible to get in any circumstance. Preferably two to three.
But when the level loads, the actual weapon mod that will be present will be picked at random.
No player choice. Also encourages abuse by reloading the level until you get the mod you want, although this can be avoided by setting up what appears in each level at the very beginning of the game.

I think we should go with the shop choice, perhaps. If we're going with the idea of unique mods at all.

A Problem with all these visual mod options though is there is a limited set of multiskins you can have on a mesh. If I recall, DDL (the last remaining HDTP author that saw it to completion after many years of development) ran out of multiskins trying to add the laser mod glow on the sniper rifle that indicates you have the mod turned on.

You can have 8 multiskins - eight individual skins on a mesh, which in the case of weapons some are masked/hidden to create the effect of weapons with mods attached or unattached. Without looking, the HDTP Rifle uses:

Scope
Laser Mod
Suppressor
Body Skin 1
Body Skin 2
Clip (ejects when reloading)
Scope light reflection effect
???

And as a result couldn't support the laser glow effect. So we've got to watch out for that too.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Oh I'd much prefer weapon mods scattered in logical locations, but you don't like the universal mod idea.
What does the universal mod idea have to do with the locations they get put in?
Cybernetic Pig wrote:No player choice. Also encourages abuse by reloading the level until you get the mod you want, although this can be avoided by setting up what appears in each level at the very beginning of the game.
Why is it important for the player to choose what they could receive? And don't tell me that choice permanence bs. You pick 3 - 4 random attachments, then select 3-4 places out of a large list or an array of of valid predefined locations.

Then do that, define what appears at the beginning of the game to stop it from being abused..

Or you could just have all of them in the game, in predefined locations and move on with life.
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

I'm against having weapon specific upgrades as it'll encompass the most frustrating gameplay of all the RPGs since Diablo - encountering an upgrade for a weapon you don't currently have, or currently use, coupled with limited inventory space.
This will make players hoard certain things on the prospect they might be useful rather than crafting their own gameplay experience. In the given example, a heavy-gun using player might encounter the shotgun upgrade for incendiary shells (although dragon breaths are usually pyrotechnics only - no combat use whatsoever) to replace the pretty ammo-inefficient and ammo-scarce flamethrower and start hoarding other upgrades for other weapons (or vice versa, which is just as worse), even they do not suit their playstyle neither logically nor thematically. It becomes a convoluted mess that will take far more inventory management, item hunting and dropping in strategical spots than it is worth.

On the topic of the previous post - not to speak on behest of Cybernetic Pig, the universal mod idea is related to buffing the player related to progress and challenge completion while the specialized mod idea is related to buffing certain weapons to aid the player for certain occasions - as a reward it is pointless as you might get a mod that doesn't fit your style. Also, adding randomness to the mix is always a bad idea, at least in my opinion.
The question, therefore, is whether you want to congratulate the player for certain actions, or make certain playstyles more valid in certain occasions*. The already existing game parallels for this are finding a weapon after being done with a dungeon in TLoZ vs. getting health packs and ammo before a boss.
Both carry some merit, but it's a question which design is best suited for Deus Ex.

*And due to how Deus Ex works, will last the entire game from there on out.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote:Why is it important for the player to choose what they could receive? And don't tell me that choice permanence bs.
Because linear progression in an RPG with no choice on the matter whatsoever sucks? Imagine if augs were randomized with the only choice being to install it or not to install it? Imagine if you "leveled up" and what skills you got was randomized, or all skills automatically leveled up equally? May as well just do away with RPG progression systems and have the player able to shoot straight/swim properly/reload in the standard time present in all other games by default. After all, it'd be more realistic. :P
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote:Why is it important for the player to choose what they could receive? And don't tell me that choice permanence bs.
Because linear progression in an RPG with no choice on the matter whatsoever sucks? Imagine if augs were randomized with the only choice being to install it or not to install it? Imagine if you "leveled up" and what skills you got was randomized, or all skills automatically leveled up equally? May as well just do away with RPG progression systems and have the player able to shoot straight/swim properly/reload in the standard time present in all other games by default. After all, it'd be more realistic. :P
Well that's a subjective statement but ok. Also your example regarding Augs is irrelevant because this is something completely different.

I think the best thing to do is don't do it then. That's simple isn't it?

EDIT: Was just thinking,

Perhaps it would be better to nail the functionality you want to give each weapon from this mod. Then maybe boil it down to common elements and then create a number of specialised generic mods for a sub set of weapons. This keeps the number of mods down and still conforms to DX design principles. Also still retains user choice and there wouldn't be a need for any randomisation.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote: I think the best thing to do is don't do it then. That's simple isn't it?
I agree only to avoid overloading you with work. In your mod the GEP will have to be disabled if going with Scope Detachment Concept 1.
I'd still love to implement the unique mods concept myself but preferably with visual weapon attachments.
Well that's a subjective statement but ok.
With a large degree of objectivity involved too. It's an RPG and RPGs are all about choices (and consequences). No game with exclusively linear progression systems with no choice involved is ever considered an RPG. Can't think of one. Edit: there are a couple. But it's a very rare thing.
Also your example regarding Augs is irrelevant
It wasn't, but never mind. You asked why linear progression sucked, and I gave a very legitimate example why I think so using Deus Ex's other progression systems.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote: I think the best thing to do is don't do it then. That's simple isn't it?
I agree only to avoid overloading you with work. In your mod the GEP will have to be disabled if going with Scope Detachment Concept 1.
I'd still love to implement the unique mods concept myself but preferably with visual weapon mods.
Well that's a subjective statement but ok.
With a large degree of objectivity involved too. It's an RPG and RPGs are all about choices (and consequences). No game with exclusively linear progression is ever considered an RPG. Can't think of one.
Overloading me with work is not a concern. Currently it's:

Redesign and model all these: http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons_in_Deus_Ex
Design and make 3 Dot sights
Design and make 3 Scopes
Design and make 3 Helicopters.

We both agree that one off unique weapon mods would be cool. They don't necessarily have to be visual. It's the implementation that we have our differences.

Also disable GEP? Nah It should still have it's Guidance System as a standalone mod. Even if its location is static.

I would definitely consider culling the LAW though.

Would love to make the pistol have a unique automatic mod: https://youtu.be/AqwPY-0UpjY?t=1m3s

-------------------------------------------------------------------
OTHER IDEAS - I think now is a good time to get these discussions happening.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Plasma Rifle only shoots one projectile at a time, with a 25% increase in ROF standard. I'm not a fan of shooting 3 projectiles at a time. It's a waste of valuable ammo and causes too much collateral.

Grenades act like grenades, and introduce mines to have the option to attach to walls.

Grenade Launcher as attachable weapon mod to Assault Rifle and Assault Shotgun.

Increase effectiveness and rarity of GMDX introduced weapon mods like ROF.

Introduce three new weapons:
- A snub nose revolver like this one: http://files.harrispublications.com/wp- ... -mp340.jpg . This will be used by thugs and civilians and an ideal concealable weapon.

- A heavy revolver like this: http://img06.deviantart.net/3580/i/2015 ... 5a6fm0.jpg . Encountered by tougher opponents, useful for taking down cyborgs and smaller robots.

- A dedicated SMG like this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 2a6c26.jpg . Minus the pink though.
Last edited by Mortecha on Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote: Overloading me with work is not a concern. Currently it's:

Kitchen Knife
Combat Knife
Crowbar
Throwing Knife
Pistol
Stealth Pistol
Sawed Off Shotgun
Assault Rifle
Assault Shotgun
Plasma Rifle
GEP Gun
Sniper Rifle
I thought you said you were doing all the weapons? No baton? Sword/Dao? Flamethrower? PS20? Dragon's Tooth Sword? Pepper Gun? Riot prod? The four types of grenades? Granted, some/most of these should probably be adapted from HDTP if the art style is not too inconsistent, and some of those listed are extremely well done in HDTP. Definitely consider the PS20 though as HDTP didn't touch it.
We both agree that one off unique weapon mods would be cool. They don't necessarily have to be visual. It's the implementation that we have our differences.
Yeah. And linear progression/no choice is ridiculous. No idea why you're so invested in it, especially when the shop option is an alternative that can support the realism/logic side of things notably better.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

I updated it to have a link instead pointing to the DX weapons page.
Cybernetic Pig wrote:
We both agree that one off unique weapon mods would be cool. They don't necessarily have to be visual. It's the implementation that we have our differences.
Yeah. And linear progression/no choice is ridiculous. No idea why you're so invested in it, especially when the shop option is an alternative that can support the realism/logic side of things notably better.
Could we not just borrow from HR and have an NPC weapons dealer, it still retains the choice, and the cost can dictate player ability to gain access to them. Having a shop would just be too campy.
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