Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

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Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Shadowdancerxxl wrote: - The stealth pistol is already sort of an SMG in GMDX. Only thing I would change about it is that I'd give it 9mm ammo instead of 10mm, because currently it doesn't seem like a good idea to choose stealth pistol over the regular pistol.
Stealth pistol vs pistol is balanced because the stealth pistol is better in every way except damage.

Stealth pistol pros over normal pistol:

Damage per second is higher. damage*fire rate/60. How fast the weapon can put down bad guys, basically. A fully modded stealth pistol will put down a Karkian faster than a fully modded pistol would, for example.
Recoil is lower (of course, recoil is far more relevant in GMDX).
Comes with silencer by default. Pistol costs a silencer mod, which are rare (three in the game, one of which costs a lot of money). If you take the stealth pistol you can then put that silencer mod on another weapon instead or not buy the expensive third silencer mod and have that money to spend elsewhere.
Base accuracy is 5% higher (if I recall).
Max range and accurate range is higher.
Base clip size is much larger, and scales more with clip mods. (pistol +1 per clip mod, stealth pistol +2).
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

The time for discussion is over. I don't have time anymore to continue any discussion regarding how the implementation behind the weapons or any future ideas changing the status quo. I'll only be able to redesign the weapons under the my current design mandate with no care for the semantics of their implementation. I will also only be able to provide you the 3d models, and do no work regarding their integration into the engine or mod itself. that I will leave upto you. As of tonight the requirements of my business have expanded greatly so will be unable to contribute more time than I can contribute to the redesigns. Even a mod on my own would have failed, so working with GMDX is the best bet. Kinda sucks being a CEO sometimes lol.
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DevAnj
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by DevAnj »

Cybernetic pig wrote: Stealth pistol vs pistol is balanced because the stealth pistol is better in every way except damage.
I hate to point this out, but this reason alone is good enough to sway people towards using the standard pistol and only using the stealth pistol as a backup for stuff like crowd control. In GMDX you've put a lot of focus on ammo conservation and have made lots of ammo sources scarce, especially on the higher difficulties. As a result, the focus for most people will not be on spray n pray tactics but on getting the most out of everything they have, and thus the stealth pistol basically ends up being inferior in most cases unless you happen to have saved up a ton of pistol ammo or don't really focus on pistols for your offense.
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

What it actually does is force players to use more than one gun rather than have one primary. Using only the pistol or the stealth pistol you're going to run out of ammo, and you'll want to use the PS20 and the crossbow (as those are in your skill tree), and maybe other weapons from other skill trees to fall back on.

The fact that you have to use other weapons aside from those 2 means that both upgrade options and playstyle have more importance, and that balances things out when discussing pistol vs. stealth pistol.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Yup. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the balance of the two. Ammo isn't scarce even on the higher difficulties, you get hordes of it. Still (slightly) less than vanilla but this is only to enforce diversifying tactics rather than just headshotting everything and anything with the same gun, and because ammo counts were ludicrously high.
DevAnj should know this as I've mentioned it many times before in discussions he's devoutly followed, but the guy doesn't exactly operate on reason.

It's the same with shotguns. The sawed-off is more accurate, slightly more powerful, and has greater range, all things that potentially result in less ammo consumption, but that doesn't mean it's better that the assault shotgun, which much like the stealth pistol has higher DPS and clip size.

Personally I rotate playthroughs using both the weapons, but I lean slightly more to the standard pistol because I am really not fond of HDTP's stealth pistol aesthetics.
Well, I rotate using all the weapons. They're all excellent.
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by RoSoDude »

I read most of the preceding discussion and also the discussion here and I wanted to put in my two cents.

For the issue of scopes: I actually favor the simple HDTP style implementation (Concept 2/3) because it's more in line with the existing weapon mod system where you permanently apply mods to the weapons you wish to use. Should there be interchangeable scopes at all, I agree with CyberP they should be permanently applied to a single weapon only. This still keeps in line with the existing system, where choices are permanent but you are still able to choose how you want to use weapons on the fly (laser sight on/off, scopes chosen to be appropriate for the situation). To be honest, I'm not sure how much need there is for iron sights or holographic sights etc. within the existing weapon mechanics, where scopes primarily act as an amplification tool rather than a way of reducing inaccuracy. Moreover, I question whether the effort to implement aiming-down-sights will actually be worth it given that we already have a strong accuracy system tied into the RPG systems. Could be my inherent aversion to change speaking.

For the GEP gun: Though I don't intrinsically dislike the idea of an all-in-one funpack containing crazy upgrades, I worry that it will come off as somewhat superfluous and be hard to balance consistently. I personally really enjoyed the earlier redesign of the GEP's guiding system, where the laser mod provided laser guiding and the scope mod provided direct control. That design was super intuitive from the existing weapon mod system, and provided a nice balance in utility for upgrades that would commonly be applied to other weapons.

Also, has any more thought gone into the laser mod? We're speaking in fairly broad strokes about the weapon mechanics at this point (more than just aesthetics), and I thought it worth mentioning. As I've said before, I don't think Shifter's solution (where the laser points to where your shot will go, which will stay off center) is preferable, as it simply feels awful from a gameplay perspective. I was thinking maybe a bit of additional sway during movement (and possibly slower return to center) could help balance a bit? As always, I accept that I may be missing something, or that this should not be a major concern.
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

I actually feel the same like you on most subjects aside from the laser - what it does in Shifter is remove the random element when taking each shot, which is pretty great considering this is an action-RPG.
Without the laser mod, you know in which general area your shot is going to land, and with it you know exactly where it's going to land but it doesn't buff your accuracy. In the original Deus Ex and in GMDX you get both the certainty and the accuracy, thus making the accuracy mods obsolete when you have the laser mod, which is exploitable from a min-maxing point of view, and pretty overpowered considering the importance of accuracy and the impact of recoil on accuracy in Deus Ex and GMDX in particular.

I'm not saying the laser mod, as implemented in Shifter, is perfect. But it could be implemented in a better way in GMDX (such as shot uncertainty + faster crosshairs' reduction time) in a way that doesn't make it a completely overpowered mod as it is right now.
RoSoDude
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by RoSoDude »

I get that aspect, but I'm just saying it feels awful. Like, if you thought you were aiming in one place and your laser dot showed you were aiming at another, you wouldn't leave it there, you'd calibrate your aim immediately and realign them. So having the thing just linger in place for a long time feels super strange.

I thought the same as you do but then I tried it in Shifter and I just don't want to go back to that. Ugh.

EDIT: reread your post and you weren't endorsing Shifter's solution as much as I thought, but still. I see room for a compromise between vanilla/Shifter here, which is what I meant to suggest. But after trying it, I don't want to see it go too close to Shifter.
Made in China
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Made in China »

Well, the other way to deal with it is the way most FPSes nowadays deal with looking down sights - and it is to bob the view all the freaking time, which drives me insane.

And I get why you feel that way, and I think that implementing it with the a reduced time of crosshairs reduction might solve that feeling - that way you won't feel like you're aiming at nothing and that JC is actually trying to aim properly. It'll still have some sway, but that's inherent of your weapon being inaccurate, and it's a nuisance you have to deal with until you'll get more proficient or actually make your weapon better.

EDIT - THE EDITIONING: Wrote this in between your post and edit, so haven't had the proper time to read your new post. I feel like Shifter's idea is good and is a good fit to Deus Ex, but Yukigachi's implementation of it leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't translate directly to GMDX - but it is worth taking inspiration from.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Two laser changes in v9.0:

1. If enabled, laser no longer disables when mantling. There was no reason why it should have and it was annoying.
2. Dynamic crosshairs are not drawn when aiming at the target with the laser mod on. This is good because it acted as confirmation you're on the target. It will make long range laser shooting more difficult as the laser is difficult to see at some distance.

Edit: not sure what's going on with this mod exactly but Mortecha doesn't seem happy and "has no interest in working with me" because of the disagreement over the re-materialization of scopes in the inventory, so keep GMDX discussion independent of it please.
Sorry to disappoint the fans that were anticipating it.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Lets not confuse this one disagreement with the potential for the same amount of problems associated with other disagreements down the line for any future functionality suggestions I have in mind.

While you did not specifically agree to the functionality I was after (Scopes detach to inventory), You where in a position to accept it. But then once I created a thread that had the purpose to solidify the outcomes of the discussions we had had at that point which at this point had consumed 9 pages for one idea alone, you backtracked, this prolonging the discussion and ensured that further discussion would be unavoidable thus wasting more time I do not have despite my stance being mostly constant the entire time. This little bit of functionality underpins the entire idea I had for scopes for my optional mod in GMDX, and because you backtracked, you gave me no other choice but to remove my willingness to continue working with you on GMDX, because I do not like my time being wasted on someone who changes their opinion after the discussion we had.

It has become apparent to me that our views regarding what would make a good mod for DX are entirely different, and that working together would be impossible, because if we did, all we would have is countless pages of discussion and wasted effort. In fact I am still so pissed off that I am willing to redact my willingness to provide you the models I make, but at this stage that is still in place.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

You're confusing me being open to and willing to discuss your concepts with some deluded idea that because we are talking about it, it must be the concept we are going for and not any of the other proposed concepts. I backtracked on absolutely nothing.
It has become apparent to me that our views regarding what would make a good mod for DX are entirely different
That makes absolutely no sense considering GMDX is the mod that inspired you to make a weapons mod specifically for it. We had come to a point where we agreed on everything with the weapons except the simple smallest detail of whether or not scopes should re-materialize in the inventory.

Oh well.
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Shadowdancerxxl
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Shadowdancerxxl »

I like pineapples.
http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx A mod that improves Deus Ex's gameplay, maps, visuals, audio etc. whilst staying loyal to its original design? Yes my friend, you may touch yourself with the light now.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:You're confusing me being open to and willing to discuss your concepts with some deluded idea that because we are talking about it, it must be the concept we are going for and not any of the other proposed concepts. I backtracked on absolutely nothing.
Deluded? So you just like wasting my time for the sake of it then? That is worse than backtracking altogether, and you did backtrack as we pretty much had Option 1 functionality decided upon. But then I must be delusional right?

Cybernetic pig wrote:
It has become apparent to me that our views regarding what would make a good mod for DX are entirely different
That makes absolutely no sense considering GMDX is the mod that inspired you to make a weapons mod specifically for it. We had come to a point where we agreed on everything with the weapons except the simple smallest detail of whether or not scopes should re-materialize in the inventory.

Oh well.
Wrong, I never said that GMDX is the mod that inspired me to make weapons for DX, ever. I did for a time think that GMDX was most deserving of them though. If you recall I provided Revision with 100 or so suggestions on their issue tracker before I approached you and offered similar suggestions. I also suggested modelling new helicopters and integrate a weapon mod I had been planning, even before I approached Revision's devs. But you tried to rope me into doing other shit you wanted. I am glad I stuck to the things I wanted to work on though.

Oh well? haha you have issues and you are toxic. I am glad to have stopped working with you and I can now focus on creating a mod with functionality I want without having to waste time and dealing with sheer frustration of trying to get one idea across. Once the MVP for my company is finished, I shall continue onward with the luxury of not having to deal with you.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

I am glad to have stopped working with you and I can now focus on creating a mod with functionality I want without having to waste time and dealing with sheer frustration of trying to get one idea across.
That's really all this was about. My planning and attempts to get things to fit in with the pre-existing design was merely a wall for you to knock down. You wanted your interchangeable mods and such with zero regard for said pre-existing design and zero planning, and if you weren't going to get it you'd throw the wobblies. The first wobbly you threw was when I took a stance for generic scopes a mere two pages into the discussion! AND despite repeated statements that I'm open to other ideas or compromises. I should have got the hint then, but the apology seemed so sincere...
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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