Deus Ex: Human Revolution does not have enough votes!

[Jonas]

Wait, were you being sarcastic? Because I seem to remember your character being introduced properly, but just as completely insignificant. You were fighting alongside Carth and Bastila, and your own backstory wasn't really explained because, well, nobody cared about you. Then you became a Jedi and went through the entire Galaxy, saving it from the Sith...

...only to find out that you're they're leader.

Yep, now contrast and compare to eg. The Witcher, which starts with the main character getting amnesia so he has to be re-introduced to his entire life, going around asking everyone things he used to know, such that the player will also know them. The way I remember it, which may be inaccurate if Jaedar is right, KOTOR doesn't tell you that your memory has been erased and replaced until the actual twist happens where it's revealed what happened and who you really are.

Meh, it's a BIO game, if you're playing it for the RPG system you're doing it wrong

Okay maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but didn't you very recently rant angrily about Dragon Age's character system? Were you, in fact, simply doing it wrong?

[Jaedar]

Yes.

You play BIO games for the romance, minigames and the action combat. Or at least, that's what I gather from the fans at their forums.

The way I remember it, which may be inaccurate if Jaedar is right, KOTOR doesn't tell you that your memory has been erased and replaced until the actual twist happens where it's revealed what happened and who you really are.

Don't think they actually say: "you have amnesia", it's more like "you know absolutely nothing about anything so you might as well be having amnesia".

[Jonas]

Yeah, so that's not presented as an amnesia hook, it's just a blank slate character for all you know - just look at how Neverwinter Nights starts, same thing

[Jaedar]

Yeah, so that's not presented as an amnesia hook, it's just a blank slate character for all you know - just look at how Neverwinter Nights starts, same thing

I've never played the original Neverwinter as I hear it is crap. I hear some good things about the expansions though.

And really, the difference between amnesia and blank slate are minor, at least when the blank slate has no knowledge about the world. Can you make a blank slate with knowledge, or does it cease being a blank slate at that? In that case the difference between amnesia and blank slate is that the amnesia has a backstory.

[Jonas]

Well you can't label one plot device as a cliché just because it serves the same function as another plot device which is generally recognised to be a cliché. The problem with amnesia as a plot device to align avatar knowledge with player knowledge is that memory loss is a pretty memorable and unusual plot point that has - or at least should have - far-reaching consequences, so because it's been used so much, it's become a major cliché. Another way to achieve the same thing is by having the main character arrive in the setting from somewhere else in the beginning, which is a much more ordinary circumstance (how often do you go somewhere you've never been before, compared to how often you suffer from amnesia?) so probably won't ever become a cliché.

[loony636]

Yep, now contrast and compare to eg. The Witcher, which starts with the main character getting amnesia so he has to be re-introduced to his entire life, going around asking everyone things he used to know, such that the player will also know them. The way I remember it, which may be inaccurate if Jaedar is right, KOTOR doesn't tell you that your memory has been erased and replaced until the actual twist happens where it's revealed what happened and who you really are.

Ohhh, sorry, I was on sarcasm alert .

But yes, I agree totally about amnesia; it was a novel use of the plot device in KotOR, but yes, its been drastically overused to the extent that its too convenient to be compelling. Mass Effect's system of picking your back story was interesting; if i remember correctly, depending on your character choices at the beginning of the game, your character received a different backstory that was explained later in a random side quest. Of course, I never got to the side quest, so I never found out my character's backstory, but I'm sure it was interesting.

[Jaedar]

Mass effect did it rather well I think, it didn't matter much, but you saw some consequences for it. Contrast it to Dragon Age, and it was fucking brilliant. I am willing to forgive amnesia as a plot device if it is actually required, ie the setting is strange and unfamiliar. Unfortunately, the games industry makes very few such games, as most are just set in generic present, generic fantasy, or generic sci-fi. And even so, you could always explain the obvious stuff by using cutscenes, because everybody loves those.

[loony636]

Oh! I just remembered the game I thought did the whole "introducing your character" thing the best; Fallout 3. Granted, the initial scenes weren't the most riveting, and the fact that you could undo them all when you were about to leave the Vault was a little dodgy, but it worked dammit!

And the way they brought you back to the Vault only to see your childhood friends all jaded and/or missing several vital organs was brilliant.

[Jonas]

Or just not explain it, just roll with it and trust the players to pick it up as they go. Zeno Clash was brilliant for that. Too bad about the terrible goddamn boss fights.

[Jaedar]

Or just not explain it, just roll with it and trust the players to pick it up as they go.

Yeah..... I don't see this becoming the norm. The games industry has much too little faith in their customers intelligence.

But Valve are doing it(sort of), and they're pretty mainstream and popular, so you never know.

[DDL]

Mass effect did it rather well I think, it didn't matter much, but you saw some consequences for it. Contrast it to Dragon Age, and it was fucking brilliant.

Hang on, is this a criticism of dragon age, or a compliment?

Coz, if a criticism..wtf? A game where you arbitrarily choose "spacer, survivor, done" is better than a game where you actually PLAY your backstory?

[Jaedar]

Mass effect did it rather well I think, it didn't matter much, but you saw some consequences for it. Contrast it to Dragon Age, and it was fucking brilliant.

Hang on, is this a criticism of dragon age, or a compliment?

Coz, if a criticism..wtf? A game where you arbitrarily choose "spacer, survivor, done" is better than a game where you actually PLAY your backstory?

'
You're not looking at it hard enough.

Playing your backstory actually made it worse for me, because it was completely retartedly(downheartedly? wth firefox spellcheck?) implemented. The backstories were too diverse to fit into the mould they all got pushed in. Trying to write dialogue fitting of both a well-educated elven mage and a practically illiterate dwarven commoner is a hopeless endeavour, but bioware wanted to try, and they failed. But my hatred for DA and everything it stands for has already been well documented and I see no need to push it further unless you really want me to.

[DDL]

Huh...I'd've said exactly the opposite, but then I guess we've already discussed our differing attitudes to games.

"Heee! They implemented quite a few different convos for different races and backgrounds! That's awesome!"

vs

"They implemented quite a few different convos for different races and backgrounds, but didn't do it to my satisfaction, thus it sucks something fucking rotten."

[Jaedar]

I like consistency. I don't really mind being a consistent space faring idiot that much (see mass effect), but I really don't like it in DA when BW basically hand you a character sheet and say: This is your motivation, and 2 hours later, they never let you act upon that motivation (again). It feels so very shoehorned.

"Heee! They implemented quite a few different convos for different races and backgrounds! That's awesome!"

That's basically what mass effect did as well... and it did it without causing consistency faults.

I kinda approve of BW making DA, because at least it represents them trying to do something new and deep and "RPG"y, its just to bad they failed so utterly at making a game I could enjoy. The only reason I managed to get through it all was because of that potential, it felt as though the game kept going "keep playing, i'll get to the promised awesomeness soon". The problem is that it never really gets there, and when it does it is quickly interrupted by the new shit. I just couldn't buy anything about the game's writing. My character was utterly dull and uninteresting (why not give me the option to exact some revenge against the humans that have oppresed my race(and (my) magekind?) for thousands of years. Seems like a reasonable thing to do in that position.), both the villains are complete shit(RAAARGH I'M A ZOMBIII, gief me your brains except with EVEN less characterization, and I'm just looking to do the best for the peopl RAGAHHAH turns out I'm just insane and am going to kill the only people that can defeat the darkspawn) and this sentence is getting way to long.

[chris the cynic]

If someone is wishing to experience Dark Forces (the first game in the inconsistently named series that includes Jedi Knight, Mysteries of the Sith, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy) without actually having to, you know, play Dark Forces I would recommend this (incomplete) mod of Jedi Academy.

The mod ended a while ago when the team moved on with their lives but was then picked up by others and I have no idea where they stand now. Mostly I just remember the three level demo the original team released, which I thought highly of.