What are you playing?

[AEmer]

I don't know if I can add anything to the concrete discussion about the takedown button at all.

To me, it reads like the morrowind discussion all over again. Someone says something about a controvercial feature in a new game, the people who don't like the feature it attack it, and the only resort the people who defend it have available to them is to compare it with something similarly stupid that the people attacking the feature decided to give a free pass, thereby illustrating a bias against modernity (tm).

I fought tooth and nail to prove my point in that discussion, but it didn't help; nomatter what I did, we couldn't even agree on the basic facts of the game, or what a typical player would do. I picked a random lets play from youtube, made sure the guy doing it appeared to be a player after mine own heart, and even with a case study right in my hand that anybody could tear down, and with plenty of case studies outthere that could provide counter examples, we could never even approach the substance of the comparison: I don't think a single other person watched the linked videoes, at least not ones willing to argue with me.

Unfortunately, the problem is that this weird discussion of the validity of criticism assumes that the person making the criticism is _allowed to be lazy_. That his criticism must be brought to heel by people who are critical of 'it', using examples and anecdotes and analysis.

And that's wrong, just as I was wrong to even attempt that. If the person making the criticism cannot lay out evidence of it - if he can't provide a concrete example, or help you make a concrete example happen by having one of you playtest - don't bother. If you don't find his criticism convincing, say as much, if he doesn't feel like helping with the groundwork to present his evidence, don't do it for him. He won't retract any statements, or admit to being wrong, because that's not really what he cares about in the first place. He simply thought he had an insight, felt like sharing it, and now he has a take it or leave it attitutde. So take it or leave it.

[DaveW]

Once you've got the DTS you can wait in vents for enemies to pass below you, jump out, hit him and back away (of course, you can't always get away). Of course, the DTS does make DX melee combat rather easy, but it's still rather useless against several enemies on high difficulty levels because enemies can often shoot you in the head, instantly killing you.

The same applies to HR, though - you could enter a takedown with two enemies, come out of it and get shot by their mate who was standing a few metres away from them. It just doesn't happen that often (like Deus Ex.) In fact, the DTS is easier than the takedowns in some situations because you can rapidly engage more than 2 enemies. It's mostly helped by the AI having the short 'reaction time' where they don't attack.

For different situations and at different points in the game the player should use different weapons with different tactics.
How is that anything like pressing the same button in all situations? Even if players need to think about how to approach a group of enemies, a player in DX has to do that as well, then determine the weapon he's going to use (baton, prod or something else) and execute it flawlessly. I typically panic and flail the baton and miss and get shot, so at the hard or realistic difficulty setting I have to rely on stealth, simply because I am unable to consistently execute the things you say are so easy that they're as easy as pressing a button.*

*When using a baton/prod in DX you'll need to press the same button at least TWICE so yeah. Very challenging.

No one is saying they aren't different, just that takedowns aren't much (batons) or any (prod) easier than melee in DX. At least, not to anyone who can play an FPS. Essentially, the only reason to dislike takedowns is:

-They are somewhat easier than ammo-less melee weapons
-They are not constrained by ammo like the prod
-They reduce variety
-Fucking modern games

NOT

-They make the whole game easier.

Because they don't. Like I said, make the above arguments if you wish - I just don't like people being disingenuous about it. It is not easier than the prod.

(Also, the baton is only useful for stealth kills. If you just want to whack someone, use the crowbar or DTS. When used properly the baton/prod will take an enemy down in one shot - you shouldn't need two.)

[Cybernetic pig]

@DDL, I only just read your edit a few pages back, you have got me chalked up all wrong. Yes my Borderlands post I had some unintentional superiority issues going on, but I dont think I am missing the point when it comes to that game. Yes it is meant to be all about looting and gunning. But I think that is just plain bad design. Its half a game, and even parts of that half are randomly generated.

I like that it doesn't take itself seriously, I like its art style, I like hunting skags. But randomly generated guns, and BORING, repetitive quests imo is bad and lazy design respectively.

It is you who is missing the point.

Also claiming I make you slap yourself in the face with your palm is clear evidence that I am superior to you, I have mind powers. JK

Im sorry about your sore forehead, please be patient with me, I'll catch up with you guys soon. You had a (roughly) 15 year head start. Or maybe that is not a good excuse and in reality im just an idiot

[bobby 55]

Borderlands 2; Gunzerker class playthrough 1; is done. It took 44 hours according to Steam. I reckon 5 of those hours was spent re-doing stuff because of many, many deaths. I don't know if I'll try 2.5 but I may give playthrough 2 a go if it's not significantly tougher. I could say more but there are some fellow forumites still to finish and I don't want to spoil anything for them.

[DDL]

randomly generated guns, and BORING, repetitive quests imo is bad and lazy design respectively

Also, in other news, randomly generated guns are more of less borderlands unique fucking selling point. They're not marketing themselves on tightly-plotted gripping storylines, or focussed, dramatic quests with interesting takes on the questing genre. They have never done so, and have never claimed to have done so. They are selling popcorn fun, silly fun, shooty-focussed fun that is more or less pared down to pure gunplay, because this shows off the guns...and as I said, the guns are really the stars here.
Does your revolver only have a two round magazine? HOLY FUCKING SHIT SO DOES THE MESH. And it's got a scope? And so does the mesh! And it's a different scope to my other pistol, and OMFG it gives a different scope view! And yet you're writing off a fuckton of dedicated coding and modelling that went into making a system that can genuinely generate procedural fucking firearms as "bad design".

What you are saying here is akin to saying "Bejewelled is overly gem focussed, which I think is lazy. Also, it's pretty repetitive and too puzzle-based. It needs to be more like system shock."

Slating a game for not being a totally different game that you'd prefer. The mind boggles.

[Cybernetic pig]

You make fine points. But most of us agree a steak is tastier, more wholesome and better for you than popcorn.

But yeah the coding for the guns is surely the work of a genius, but that still doesn't make it a good idea in execution imo. And it's a selling point just as much as Justin Bieber's baby face is.

And im NOT saying it should be like a Looking Glass game, all im saying is they cannot make fun quests, clearly. They do not have to be intelligent, thought provoking quests. Just fun, entertaining, varied. Its widely agreed they are not fun and that most certainly is NOT good design.

So the programmers are awesome, but quest writers were all going through mid-life crisis during development, or something.

Saying the guns are the stars and fuck the rest is bad design.

[DDL]

A face which has sold, I note, FUCKING MILLIONS of records.

Not your cup of tea, perhaps. Certainly not mine, either, but undeniably incredibly popular and concommitantly successful.

What you are basically saying is "borderlands is not the game for me because I don't like 'guns as diablo loot'", which is fine, but just be aware that you not liking it does not make that a universal truth. Borderlands sells itself on silliness and 'guns as diablo loot', and it does so SUPERBLY. Also, I should note, it's sold fucking millions of games.

[DDL]

Also, for the rest of us, can you provide us with examples of quests you'd consider 'good'? Or even 'fun, entertaining, varied'?

Because 90% of all quests, ever (EVER) can be summarised as either "Kill X of Y", "Go from A to B", "talk to X" or "get me N of P".

You could describe borderlands quests as "unexceptional", perhaps. But then you could describe a lot of things about a lot of games as "unexceptional". System shock's combat was, for instance, unexceptional.

[YeomanTheCastle]

And it's a selling point just as much as Justin Bieber's baby face is.

[Cybernetic pig]

I am not ready to be challenging you. I'll try again in a few years. You are superior, I yeald.

But quickly for quests- Its not so much the objective of the quest that makes it good, but the presentation and the journey. Fallout New Vegas Is jam packed with Kill X and Fetch Y, but the writing, varied locations and shenanigans along the way that makes the game have good quests. Quests will allways be mostly Fetch Y Kill X.

The best quests ever are definately in Deus Ex though.

But I stand by this:

Saying the guns are the stars and fuck the rest is bad design.

[DDL]

"The plot and the multiple approaches to problems are the stars, so fuck the AI"

-Warren Spector, probably

[Cybernetic pig]

Good Point.

[bobby 55]

Because 90% of all quests, ever (EVER) can be summarised as either "Kill X of Y", "Go from A to B", "talk to X" or "get me N of P".

"Shoot the guy in the face".
I'm not taking the piss, that's it 's title. It's Borderlands 2 parodying Borderlands...and other shoot-n-loot games probably.

[DaveW]

But most of us agree a steak is tastier, more wholesome and better for you than popcorn.

Most of us will also agree that you wouldn't want popcorn for dinner or steak as a cinema snack. * Both are different things - that does not mean they compete with each-other or are mutually exclusive.

*Frankly I wouldn't agree with your statement at all because I'm vegan, but I get your point.

[Cybernetic pig]

Also true.