Assault Rifle Design (Poll disappeared!)

[Phasmatis]

Considering you've only been working with the team for a couple of weeks Alex you're in no position to start commanding change in the entire ethos of HDTP, yes we can make more realistic weapons and yes we can probably make them look better than the ones in Deus Ex but that ISN'T what HDTP is about but fine, go against what the majority of the poll are saying.

Like has been said many times, Gunther went through so many changes because we added elements or tried to make him better. If you want to make a new version then fine go ahead, if the community prefers it, I will give in but remember you are more than welcome to make suggestions and give ideas but don?t push your opinion on others.

[_Alex_]

Well I dont think i'm the only one who is of the mind that the art team needs a longer leash.

I'm not saying we should throw away the original concepts, or go piss wild chasing our own notions to the detriment of the source material.

But I *do* think we need to have a (moderate) view. and cut a line between our own ideas, and the original concepts. Especially if our own input adds to , or further brings out the features of the original.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

If you want to make a new version then fine go ahead, if the community prefers it, I will give in but remember you are more than welcome to make suggestions and give ideas but don?t push your opinion on others.

I could say the same to you Phas, DDL and Ajare.

I already spoke to metche about that this Model needed a huge design change, but she never really said anything about it apart from "we'll talk about it later".

Well I dont think i'm the only one who is of the mind that the art team needs a longer leash.

I agree, and I'm really fed up with people's criticism at the moment of the work we are doing. I understand why Alex is acting this way, purely because the Team is completely and utterly divided over this project. We feel un-appreciated and un-wanted. I feel a bit sorry for Alex, he was sort of thrown into Character artist, and after the problems we had with Tek, obviously it was going to be a difficult job.

I'd also like to say that just because I person has been here longer, doesn't mean anything at all. On the other hand, the people just signing up to Bitch and tell us we're no good, should go elsewhere.

[EER]

I *do* think that SOME artistic freedom *should* be allowed, however, when you're High-deffing something, stick as much as possible to the original, hence: I vote 'original'. If that seems impossible (sounds like a challenging subject), as snipa suggests, I think the Alex trade-off isn't bad at all.

However, 'make it like a real gun' is like saying: "Let's make Anna Navarre Male, it's better that way". PLEASE, ANY *SENSIBLE* argument for changing the design! ANYONE?!?

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

However, 'make it like a real gun' is like saying: "Let's make Anna Navarre Male, it's better that way". PLEASE, ANY *SENSIBLE* argument for changing the design! ANYONE?!?

Um NO ITS NOT LIKE THAT YOU FALLACY FLINGING BUTT MONKEY

Those are irrelevant issues. They are two completely different things.. and No one would ever do that to a main character. Our argument is Sensible. The design is not rational, its not function able and its not stylish. We've already changed weapons before, Why not now! Phas you changed the glock, so everything you say is Hypocracy anyway, you've already done it before and it looks great. As I said, Adding the weapon Mods has already changed the design of things! So now do you want them out to keep it as close to the original ? NO OF COURSE YOU DON'T

If that seems impossible (sounds like a challenging subject), as snipa suggests, I think the Alex trade-off isn't bad at all.

I'd agree to using Alex's on account he adds a few extra details. I'd prefer the FAMAS though out of the fact that it suits the Deus Ex style and that Snipa is a brilliant modeler when it comes to real world weapons.

[EER]

However, 'make it like a real gun' is like saying: "Let's make Anna Navarre Male, it's better that way". PLEASE, ANY *SENSIBLE* argument for changing the design! ANYONE?!?

Um NO ITS NOT LIKE THAT YOU FALLACY FLINGING BUTT MONKEY

heheheh

Those are irrelevant issues. They are two completely different things.. and No one would ever do that to a main character.

This gun is indeed far less frequently seen than Anna Navarre.

Our argument is Sensible. The design is not rational, its not function able and its not stylish.

So basically your argument is: "We don't like the original design", which I think is invalid, because it is a subjective matter (correct me if I'm wrong).

We've already changed weapons before, Why not now! Phas you changed the glock, so everything you say is Hypocracy anyway

Like I said earlier, the Pistol has gone from an L shaped black object to a L shaped black object. You are suggesting moving from a grey square (sort of) shaped object to a very 'stylish' rectangle shaped object.

As I said, Adding the weapon Mods has already changed the design of things!

True.

So now do you want them out to keep it as close to the original ? NO OF COURSE YOU DON'T

Were the mods already visible in the original? No. Was the Assault rifle visible in the original? Yes.

I'd prefer the FAMAS though out of the fact that it suits the Deus Ex style and that Snipa is a brilliant modeler when it comes to real world weapons.

I'm not doubting snipa's or Alexs modeling abilities here, but I'm just sincerely worried that this mod is going to move from:
"We're re-making the original Deus Ex objects" to "We're re-making our interpretation of the original Deus Ex objects".

For something as low res as the characters, I think sure, you need a loose chain to do it properly. But as I stated (and Jonas refined) in the other thread: The characters were low-poly due to technical problems at that time, the AR has created this way by design.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

This gun is indeed far less frequently seen than Anna Navarre.

Not true, actually the gun appears more than Anna Navarre.

So basically your argument is: "We don't like the original design", which I think is invalid, because it is a subjective matter (correct me if I'm wrong).

Don't paraphrase and blow my argument out of context. I made a valid point.

Like I said earlier, the Pistol has gone from an L shaped black object to a L shaped black object. You are suggesting moving from a grey square (sort of) shaped object to a very 'stylish' rectangle shaped object.

The point is, IT WAS BASED ON A REAL WEAPON. The methodology worked, we should keep using it.

Were the mods already visible in the original? No. Was the Assault rifle visible in the original? Yes.

It'd be disturbing if it wasn't lol. Another fallacy.

"We're re-making the original Deus Ex objects" to "We're re-making our interpretation of the original Deus Ex objects".

Its the Same damn thing! we can't remake Deus Ex, we didn't make it in the first place. Hence we are interpreting it.

All three weapons have similar attributes, look at them compared to one another and you'll see they are very similar.

[_Alex_]

For something as low res as the characters, I think sure, you need a loose chain to do it properly. But as I stated (and Jonas refined) in the other thread: The characters were low-poly due to technical problems at that time, the AR has created this way by design.

I disagree.

Everything was created at the same time, by the same team, under the same technical limitations. Sure the characters may be the most noticeable reprecussion of this, but the weapon models were equally stunted. I don't doubt that if DX had been made today, you would have seen a very different looking Assault Rifle out of the IS guys.

[_Alex_]

For something as low res as the characters, I think sure, you need a loose chain to do it properly. But as I stated (and Jonas refined) in the other thread: The characters were low-poly due to technical problems at that time, the AR has created this way by design.

I disagree.

Everything was created at the same time, by the same team, under the same technical limitations. Sure the characters may be the most noticeable reprecussion of this, but the weapon models were equally stunted. I don't doubt that if DX had been made today, you would have seen a very different looking Assault Rifle out of the IS guys.[/quote]

Quote:
"We're re-making the original Deus Ex objects" to "We're re-making our interpretation of the original Deus Ex objects".


Its the Same damn thing! we can't remake Deus Ex, we didn't make it in the first place. Hence we are interpreting it.

very true.

[EER]

Not true, actually the gun appears more than Anna Navarre.

Ah, so what makes Anna Navarre a more important 'main character' than the Assault Rifle?

So basically your argument is: "We don't like the original design", which I think is invalid, because it is a subjective matter (correct me if I'm wrong).

Don't paraphrase and blow my argument out of context. I made a valid point.

I didn't mean to, I'm trying to translate it to something I can understand:

Our argument is Sensible. The design is not rational, its not function able and its not stylish.

The above was your argument, and I think, that the three points you make there, are alltogether comments on the design, ergo, in EER-speak: "I don't like the design". If you can explain it better than that, please, be my guest.

The point is, IT WAS BASED ON A REAL WEAPON. The methodology worked, we should keep using it.

However, the model in the DX editor was also called "Glock", if the AR model is called "FAMAS", I will instantly revoke all my posts from this thread and re-vote for "FAMAS".

Were the mods already visible in the original? No. Was the Assault rifle visible in the original? Yes.

It'd be disturbing if it wasn't lol. Another fallacy.

But an important difference, because things that cannot be seen are prone to be thought of yourselves, things that CAN be seen however have prior art and are therefore bound to other rules

At least, that's the way I see it.

"We're re-making the original Deus Ex objects" to "We're re-making our interpretation of the original Deus Ex objects".

Its the Same damn thing! we can't remake Deus Ex, we didn't make it in the first place. Hence we are interpreting it.

It's true that you didn't make DX and you are interpreting the models, however, it's not really the same.
In the first case: You are interpreting the model and enhancing it.
In the second case: You are interpreting what YOU think is the IDEA behind the model, and enhancing/modelling that.

All three weapons have similar attributes, look at them compared to one another and you'll see they are very similar.

I don't really understand what this is a reference to, srry.

I don't doubt that if DX had been made today, you would have seen a very different looking Assault Rifle out of the IS guys.

Are you saying that it WOULD or WOULD NOT be the same? (English is not my native language and double negatives are confusing).

[_Alex_]

In the first case: You are interpreting the model and enhancing it.In the second case: You are interpreting what YOU think is the IDEA behind the model, and enhancing/modelling that.

Impossible. The model is an expression of a concept - in 3D. You cannot adress the model without adressing the concept simultaneously. And if all you adressed WAS the model, the result would be an EXACT replica of what you saw in front of you - ie. A box with a cylinder sticking out of it. Would you like me to model that for you in max?

[EER]

In the first case: You are interpreting the model and enhancing it.In the second case: You are interpreting what YOU think is the IDEA behind the model, and enhancing/modelling that.

Impossible. The model is an expression of a concept - in 3D. You cannot adress the model without adressing the concept simultaneously. And if all you adressed WAS the model, the result would be an EXACT replica of what you saw in front of you - ie. A box with a cylinder sticking out of it. Would you like me to model that for you in max?

If the assault rifle were a box with a cylinder sticking out of it, yes. But I would be more satisfied if you were to accomplish with a model, what Ion Storm had to accomplish with texture tricks.

[DDL]

I don't think you should keep bringing up the pistol. The whole point of the pistol is that is was incredibly generic. Even the description:

A standard 10mm pistol

That's IT.

We only used a glock because the mesh itself is called 'glock', and because there was so little source material to work with: it literally is a black L shape. Is the pistol 'iconic'? No.

The assault rifle has a lot more character to it: it's definitely something that 'says' DX to me. As always, this is an opinion based thing, but given that it's a larger model, we have lots more source material to work with.
Plus, it's the original design, which is what we're supposed to stick to, wherever possible.


You say the design is stupid and inefficient? Well, aside from all the subjectiveness involved in something 'looking stupid/ugly/whatever', the gun IS inefficient. It will still be inefficient with the new model, so while you can make it look like a damn famas, it will still behave exactly like the DX assault rifle.


I still don't see why we don't follow jonas's idea (damn compromising danes): make both. I'll import them into separate packages, and we'll let users decide which one they want to install?

[EER]

I still don't see why we don't follow jonas's idea (damn compromising danes): make both. I'll import them into separate packages, and we'll let users decide which one they want to install?

If the modellers are also in favor of this idea, I'd say I'd support it. I think it would make (nearly) all of us happy, it's just a waste to do something twice

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

I still don't see why we don't follow jonas's idea (damn compromising danes): make both. I'll import them into separate packages, and we'll let users decide which one they want to install?

That'd be good.

I think its ironic that a Fanboy and a Coder are giving the Artists a lecture on Style lol. Okay then what ever..