Deus Ex 3

[Jonas]

Forcing everyone to have combat skills, or even not having any combat skills, is not bad game design by any stretch of the imagination. In fact you haven't even bothered to try and explain why you don't like it. It even eliminates some potential ludo-narrative dissonance in making sure you don't end up with a super-agent character who can't use any weapon proficiently.

I can't really continue this debate if you won't go beyond "Deus Ex 3 does this and that, which means it is bad for unspecified reasons".

[chris the cynic]

You never had to fight the bosses in Deus Ex... Half of them could be avoided completely, and the other half had kill phrases.

Your math sucks.

The only two confrontations that couldn't be avoided where those with Anna Navarre and Howard Strong. Since Howard has no kill phrase and can't be avoided you are not counting him as a boss (something I agree with, for what its worth). That means that the only fight in "the other half" is Anna (and more specifically Anna at UNATCO.) Which would be one fight and one fight only. Thus making the total number of such fights 2.

There's no way to make that work. If we only count one fight per character, and only consider augmented characters to be bosses, that still leaves us with three such fights. If we count ever opportunity in game I believe the number reaches five (Anna subway, Anna UNATCO, Gunther, Simons sub base, Simons Area 51) of which four can be avoided entirely and two have killswitches. Only one falls into the category of not avoidable and having a killswitch, making it the other fifth, not the other half.

I realize that "half ... the other half..." is not meant to be an exact thing, but I'm pretty sure that neither is it meant to mean, "The vast majority ... the one outlier..."

-

Jonas, I too have not seen the gameplay videos, based on the complaints the impression I got was that people were more concerned it would be "press a button to watch a cut scene in which you win" than "I can't win."

I think the biggest concern I've been hearing has been the takedowns, during which you don't have have control and can be killed.

[Jaedar]

The only two confrontations that couldn't be avoided where those with Anna Navarre and Howard Strong.

Howard Strong? My mind is drawing a blank here, sorry.

Anna UNATCO, Gunther, Simons sub base, Simons Area 51)

These would be the four boss encounters I was referring to. I'm aware Gunther can be skipped, but only by jumping over a trigger, and that feels more like an exploit to me(sort of like making Anna open the door un UNATCO by throwing a LAM).

Forcing everyone to have combat skills, or even not having any combat skills, is not bad game design by any stretch of the imagination. In fact you haven't even bothered to try and explain why you don't like it. It even eliminates some potential ludo-narrative dissonance in making sure you don't end up with a super-agent character who can't use any weapon proficiently.

It's bad RPG design imo. I want to create my own character, his pros and cons and so on. If I am handed a finished character with set pros and cons at the start of a game, I cannot in any way call that an RPG(maybe an action-RPG if the other RPG stuff is done well or I'm feeling generous). Even hack and slashers like Diablo manage to be more than that.

And when you're losing the RPG battle to Diablo, something has gone wrong. Also, just because you're a super-agent doesn't mean that you have to be good with weapons. I never really understood that complaint to DX: "lol JC is super agent but he can't even hit anything at start of gaem", yeah that's how RPG's work, you start out in the shitter and then choose (an) area(s) to get better at. And the fact that JC does completely fine without weapon skills just makes him seem more resourceful.

I realize I'm sliding this debate towards "What is an RPG?"... which I shouldn't, because no good will come from that I suspect.

[Jonas]

It's bad RPG design imo.

I disagree with your opinion, end of argument.

... oh all right then.

I want to create my own character, his pros and cons and so on. If I am handed a finished character with set pros and cons at the start of a game, I cannot in any way call that an RPG(maybe an action-RPG if the other RPG stuff is done well or I'm feeling generous). Even hack and slashers like Diablo manage to be more than that.

Then you can't in any way call Deus Ex an RPG, because no matter what skills and augmentations you chose, JC Denton is a) a nano-augmented UNATCO agent who b) dies relatively quickly if he's shot. That's a pro and a con right there. Sure, on top of that you get to pick skills and augmentations, but you get to pick augmentations on top of your pros and cons in Human Revolution too, so if Deus Ex is at least in some ways an RPG, so too must Human Revolution be.

And when you're losing the RPG battle to Diablo, something has gone wrong.

Yeah, your argument has.

Also, just because you're a super-agent doesn't mean that you have to be good with weapons. I never really understood that complaint to DX: "lol JC is super agent but he can't even hit anything at start of gaem", yeah that's how RPG's work, you start out in the shitter and then choose (an) area(s) to get better at. And the fact that JC does completely fine without weapon skills just makes him seem more resourceful.

If you're making decisions based on "that's how the genre works" instead of "that's what would make sense in relation to the narrative and the gameplay that we're trying to create", then you drastically need to re-evaluate your priorities as a game designer.

I realize I'm sliding this debate towards "What is an RPG?"... which I shouldn't, because no good will come from that I suspect.

Especially not when you're insisting that Deus Ex has to adhere to your idea of an RPG. Deus Ex did not become a modern classic by adhering to a set of rules staked out by other games before it, Deus Ex became a classic by doing things nobody else had done that way before.

[chris the cynic]

Howard Strong? My mind is drawing a blank here, sorry.

He's the guy under the nuclear missile. He needs to be killed or knocked unconscious for the game to continue. Sometimes he kills himself with lams.

I'm aware Gunther can be skipped, but only by jumping over a trigger, and that feels more like an exploit to me(sort of like making Anna open the door un UNATCO by throwing a LAM).

Gunther can be skipped by running away. No "jumping over a trigger' necessary, just run like hell the moment you see him charging you. You run, he chases. You double back, do your stuff with the computer, and go to the subway station. Not a word uttered, not a shot fired. Run away is a perfectly viable strategy.

Maybe you consider running away an exploit.

[Jaedar]

JC Denton is a) a nano-augmented UNATCO agent

No real relevance to gameplay as such.

who b) dies relatively quickly if he's shot.

Unless he is using an aug to reduce the damage. Or another aug to heal it. His survivability starts in the shitter, and if you want to, you can improve it.

And really, if you count that as a con, you may as well count that he requires a lot of lockpicks to open doors or that he can't hack at the start cons. It's not a con, its just good character(as in the RPG kind, not story) development.

Then you can't in any way call Deus Ex an RPG

Certainly sounds like something I would call an RPG based on my previous post. Naturally, DX isn't an RPG its an FPSRPG.

but you get to pick augmentations on top of your pros and cons in Human Revolution too

Except that in HR, the player starts with pinpoint accuracy(Jensen picks up an x-bow, uses the sight(absolutely no wobble) and caps an enemy's head from 40m away and the developer treats it as absolutely common practise). An RPG that allows you to be King of all Trades is not a good RPG(imo).

But really, I'm not sure we get to pick Augs any more... Naturally I don't know, but to me it seems more like everyone gets the same augs, and then you use XP to improve some of the augs, at least that is the impression I currently have. But now I'm speculating wildly.

He's the guy under the nuclear missile. He needs to be killed or knocked unconscious for the game to continue. Sometimes he kills himself with lams.

Right, forgot about that I guess that makes him the one boss fight in DX that can't be skipped.

Maybe you consider running away an exploit.

It feels like an AI exploit, but I guess if the devs planned for you doing it, it counts as an avoidable fight.

This made me realize I should play DX again

[Jonas]

No real relevance to gameplay as such.

Unless he is using an aug to reduce the damage. Or another aug to heal it. His survivability starts in the shitter, and if you want to, you can improve it.

Okay back to this:

I want to create my own character, his pros and cons and so on. If I am handed a finished character with set pros and cons at the start of a game, I cannot in any way call that an RPG(maybe an action-RPG if the other RPG stuff is done well or I'm feeling generous).

So you only meant gameplay pros and cons, fair enough, but you just now used augmentations as an example of character development, and we know Human Revolution will have augmentations (that can be upgraded, even), so that would make it an RPG by your definition.

And really, if you count that as a con, you may as well count that he requires a lot of lockpicks to open doors or that he can't hack at the start cons. It's not a con, its just good character(as in the RPG kind, not story) development.

JC Denton by default is a character who can fight, sneak, pick locks, hack cameras and keypads, and dive. I'd missed the word "finished" in your original post, which is why I now have to rectify my argument, but hacking is technically the only new ability JC can be given by upgrading his skills - every skill other than Computers simply makes him better at something he can already do. Not only can JC Denton shoot at the beginning of the game, as long as you stand still he will have damn near perfect aim as well (which is more than can be said about most people). Does that make Deus Ex less of an RPG in your extremely specific personal opinion?

Then you can't in any way call Deus Ex an RPG

Certainly sounds like something I would call an RPG based on my previous post. Naturally, DX isn't an RPG its an FPSRPG.

If Deus Ex isn't in any way an RPG, it's also not an FPSRPG, the same way that if something isn't in any way jam, it's not strawberry jam.

Except that in HR, the player starts with pinpoint accuracy(Jensen picks up an x-bow, uses the sight(absolutely no wobble) and caps an enemy's head from 40m away and the developer treats it as absolutely common practise). An RPG that allows you to be King of all Trades is not a good RPG(imo).

Sounds to me like Human Revolution starts you out good and lets you pick in what ways to become awesome. That sounds like a great RPG in my opinion.

But really, I'm not sure we get to pick Augs any more... Naturally I don't know, but to me it seems more like everyone gets the same augs, and then you use XP to improve some of the augs, at least that is the impression I currently have. But now I'm speculating wildly.

Nope, you buy augmentations with money and then you upgrade them with XP. Please stop speculating wildly, it's embarrasingly pointless.

I guess that makes him the one boss fight in DX that can't be skipped.

Are we seriously counting exploits here? By design, you're not meant to be able to skip Anna Navarre.

Note that I'm pointing this out just for the sake of pointing it out, I agreed with you way up there that any Deus Ex game should aspire to allow fully non-lethal playthroughs - giving you ways to skip all boss fights would be a great way to do that, however Deus Ex itself didn't actually do that by design. That's not to say Human Revolution shouldn't, but let's at least be fair and truthful in our criticism.

[Jaedar]

Are we seriously counting exploits here? By design, you're not meant to be able to skip Anna Navarre.

Read the "fight" part. You can't skip the boss, but you can skip the boss fight, and that's all I ask.

and we know Human Revolution will have augmentations (that can be upgraded, even), so that would make it an RPG by your definition.

Not necessarily. Prototype(and a lot of other games) had a lot of similar things, and that don't make them RPG's. Makes them potential RPG's, though. I can't judge HR as an RPG or not yet, because I have not played it, nor seen enough of the RPG stuff to make an informed decision. But based on current industry trends, I doubt I will deem it worthy of being called an RPG.

but hacking is technically the only new ability JC can be given by upgrading his skills

Being able to move at normal speed with heavy weapons is technically a new ability. And I would like to think that the augs provide enough abilities, sure its not through skills, but I don't think that matters to much.

Not only can JC Denton shoot at the beginning of the game, as long as you stand still he will have damn near perfect aim as well (which is more than can be said about most people).

True, but this won't help you in an actual firefight. If you need to stand still for 5 seconds before you can hit something, you're most likely going to die. Also, you can only acquire perfect aim by skills/weapon mods which certainly sounds like character development to me.

If Deus Ex isn't in any way an RPG, it's also not an FPSRPG

Ayup, lucky me it is an RPG in some shape or from then. I never really said otherwise.

Sounds to me like Human Revolution starts you out good and lets you pick in what ways to become awesome. That sounds like a great RPG in my opinion.

Sounds like a sure-fire way to make the game ridiculously easy to me. Plus it means your character won't have any cons, only pros. And without cons, what's the point? may as well make your character a master of everything, instead of master of little, good at all. Also sounds like a pretty poor RPG imo, will probably go over well with most gamers*cough*consoletards*cough*though, since they just seem to want an ego boost, and anything that makes them suspect that they are not awesome at any game they play is bad. If the PC is good at everything, that just means the RPG stuff is superfluous. There's no point to character development, because you can already do everything.

Nope, you buy augmentations with money and then you upgrade them with XP.

Doesn't mean we won't be able to buy all of them.

[Jonas]

Read the "fight" part. You can't skip the boss, but you can skip the boss fight, and that's all I ask.

All right fair enough, but it's not all I ask for. I don't think expecting a game carrying the Deus Ex name to be completable without killing anybody is unreasonable. Even if the original game wasn't (that's why it's called progress).

Not necessarily. Prototype(and a lot of other games) had a lot of similar things, and that don't make them RPG's. Makes them potential RPG's, though. I can't judge HR as an RPG or not yet, because I have not played it, nor seen enough of the RPG stuff to make an informed decision. But based on current industry trends, I doubt I will deem it worthy of being called an RPG.

I'm repeating myself here, but I genuinely don't see why Human Revolution should aspire to meet your esoteric requirements for the RPG genre - that seems to be in exact opposition to the Looking Glass design philosophy.

Being able to move at normal speed with heavy weapons is technically a new ability. And I would like to think that the augs provide enough abilities, sure its not through skills, but I don't think that matters to much.

Being able to move at normal speed with heavy weapons is not what I would call a new ability - without it, you can still move with heavy weapons, with it you just move faster; that's not a new ability, it's just an improvement of your existing abilities.

True, but this won't help you in an actual firefight. If you need to stand still for 5 seconds before you can hit something, you're most likely going to die. Also, you can only acquire perfect aim by skills/weapon mods which certainly sounds like character development to me.

Deus Ex is all about preparation though. Find a good ambush point, hide for a few seconds until your sights go narrow, then stand up and shoot everybody in the head with your perfect aim. However, that is beside the point - the point being, JC Denton has certain skills when the game begins. Adam Jensen will have certain skills when the game begins. Some of Adam's skills won't be upgradable, others will - just like Deus Ex.

Ayup, lucky me it is an RPG in some shape or from then. I never really said otherwise.

In other words, Human Revolution is not an FPSRPG? It's just an FPS? Based on what you have read and head and seen of Human Revolution, you believe you can comfortably put it in the same genre as the Half-Life games, the FEAR games, the Crysis games, etc.?

Wait. I don't know how I got myself dragged into yet another pointless debate about genres. Forget I asked.

Sounds like a sure-fire way to make the game ridiculously easy to me. Plus it means your character won't have any cons, only pros. And without cons, what's the point? may as well make your character a master of everything, instead of master of little, good at all.

Design hint for you: game balance is just that - balance. There are two sides to it: your own power, and the power of the opposition. If you've made the player so powerful that the game becomes too easy, simply ramp up the opposition.

Also sounds like a pretty poor RPG imo

You know what my opinion on RPGs is? My opinion is that any RPG that isn't set in a fantasy world featuring elves and orcs, that doesn't feature skill progression through actions (seriously, you can get better at lock picking by bashing orc heads in with your sword? That's not how a true RPG should work), that doesn't let you create your own character from scratch including choosing from several races, classes, appearances, and names, and that doesn't have a story centered on saving the world from an invasion by demons or dragons, is not a true RPG. In my opinion, Bethesda is the only studio in the world that still makes true RPGs.

Now, how much do you care about my opinion? Not a damn lot, right? My point exactly.

will probably go over well with most gamers*cough*consoletards*cough*though

Hello there, Trollie McTroll. How is the weather in troll-ville today? Have you caught anything good lately? I'm sorry if you were expecting to catch me with that exceptionally blatant trolling of yours, perhaps you'll have better luck next time.

Nah, of course you won't

since they just seem to want an ego boost, and anything that makes them suspect that they are not awesome at any game they play is bad. If the PC is good at everything, that just means the RPG stuff is superfluous. There's no point to character development, because you can already do everything.

Well as I've pointed out, if you don't count the augmentations, the player can already do pretty much everything at the beginning of Deus Ex, the skills just make you better. Augmentations are where all the new affordances come from, and as I've pointed out? Augmentations are in Human Revolution too. So what exactly is your argument?

Doesn't mean we won't be able to buy all of them.

I think I wrote something up there about speculating. Maybe you should scroll up and re-read it. Go on, I've got time. I'll be over here, changing your title to something unpleasant in the mean time - because sometimes, the only appropriate response to immaturity is immaturity.

[DDL]

THIS CONVERSATION KILL BRAIN

seriously though, I don't think anyone's expecting this to be "DX only with more shiny new GFX"..it will be simplified (er..modernised) in various ways, and this is just something we'll have to live with. Will it be shit? Will it be awesome? Who fucking knows. What we CAN say is that it is at least starting from a far, far higher standpoint that a great many games out there.

If you're looking for a deus ex-esque fix, would you rather play a game that is "DX only a bit simpler", or "halo with augs"?

I'd rather play something that set the bar high and then failed to reach it, than something that set the bar low and slightly exceeded it.

And ffffffs, who are we kidding? We are ALL going to play this. Some of us may play it PURELY to bitch about how dumbed down it is, but nevertheless, we are all going to play this.


(but yeah, upgrade augs with XP? WTF)

[DDL]

Also, it should be noted that I have had a very hard week, and am now quite, quite drunk.

Also, I love you guys. Even you, Jonas!

[Jonas]

You are of course completely right.

Side note: upgrading augs with XP actually makes sense - it represents your character getting used to them and learning how to use them in different ways; picking up new techniques basically. As justifications for levelling up go, it's not too bad.

The reason this thread devolved into the usual antagonism is the same as always. Here, this is the message Looking Glass Studios posted to their fans when they died:

We intentionally charted new game design territory ... to thrive and grow the game industry must take some creative risks and continue to innovate. Although Looking Glass has fallen, we pass on the flag to those who are up to the challenge.

Those are not the words of a studio that concerns itself with what genres their games belong to and what norms and conventions they should adhere to, to better fit within those genres. To call yourself a fan of that tradition and legacy, and then to seriously criticise new games for not being "true RPGs" or not being close enough to old games that you liked, that is closed-minded and disrespectful, and it twists the intellectual legacy of Looking Glass into an exclusive elitist fanboy-club that runs counter to everything the studio stood for.

Looking Glass was about being intellectual to redefine the boundaries and take the medium forward, not about being intellectual to feel smarter than others, and it sure wasn't about remaking the same old games over and over again just to keep serving the same niche.

Most of all it angers and saddens me that Through The Looking Glass, which used to stand for those exact same values of innovation and renewal has devolved into the same sort of lair of bitter, smug elitists as the RPG Codex or No Mutants Allowed, and you, Jaedar, you are like an ambassador of that line of thinking, and I despise you for it.

[Nameless Voice]

I think the problem is that people, by their very nature, are nostalgic and love complaining. Plus, it's very hard to make a sequel that will live up to all the fan's expectations - especially when what made the same game so great was its originality. Just copying the first game will lose that originality - to continue to be original, a sequel has to keep innovating.

Personally, I haven't watched the gameplay trailers yet so I can't say too much about DX:HR, but I don't expect that it will be be as good as the original Deus Ex or its spiritual successor Vampire: Bloodlines. However, by keeping low expectations, I'm still in with a chance of being pleasantly surprised. I do expect that it will at least be an interesting game and will probably be better than most others that don't aspire to anything. The same thing as DX:IW - I don't consider it to be as good as DX, but it was still a good game if considered on its own, but it's not human nature to consider it on its own instead of comparing it based on the things it didn't do as well as the original game.

I'm sure Jaedar will disagree, but I think Fallout 3 is a good example of it being possible for another company to take over an established IP and make a sequel that stands up on its own as a good game. The original Fallouts were unique and interesting, while Fallout 3 is more of a completely different game set in the same universe, but I feel that despite its lesser degree of character specialisation (as it's too easy to become a jack-of-all-trades), it still managed to do a good job of what it set out to do. But then, I'm a sucker for a first-person perspective, and I always liked the Elder Scrolls games, so...

[Jaedar]

Jaedar is in vacation fight now and typing on vis iphone. Proper reply Will hopefully come tonight, when i get àcess to the hotel computer. Till then: neener neener!

[Jonas]

Don't expect anything else out of me on this one, I've said what I needed to say.