time to shake Unreal 1 engine?

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

OFFTOPIC RANT: Video Games are not Art... They are higher than art. Art usually combines Literature, Music, Performing and Painting/Drawing/Sculpture.. Video Games takes it a step further by actually letting to alter that art form.. something Film, Music, Literature ect ect can't do. This is why I consider it higher, because the viewer can literally change it to their own ideas/experiences. As we move towards more non-linear and freeform games the definition of art moves more and more away because we start to see that its much more fun and more enjoyable than art is anyway. I would rather games not be considered art since when you define it as being art.. you then have these art type assholes that steal it away so that the rest of the world can't embrace it.. This I call the "Cultured" game market, something I would rather NEVER happen since games should be universally acceptable and you shouldn't need a PHD to be able to play a game or figure out its story. Such games belong to the Niche not to the mainstream which dares to actually embrace a utilitarian approach, but in recent years I've noticed we've moved in the wrong direction towards that elitism in the ranks.. FPS games for FPS players only.. RPGs for RPG players only.. We need another Deus Ex , more hybrids ftw.

ON TOPIC:

As it stands UT3 might be a challenge to port Deus Ex to, but the rewards I think are worth it. If we can improve the graphics and AI whilst maintaining the game play.. good on us

[Jonas]

Don't know if I agree with your main point, but I definitely don't agree with one of your secondary points: Games will not be "stolen away" by Ph.D.'s and "art type assholes" if people start to accept them as an art form - films are universally regarded as art now and has been since around 1960, and if anything the movies are still acceptable by the mass market.

[DaveW]

I have played through DX 1 and 2 so many times, including with the release 1 of HDTP and I can say that HDTP does not blow a second breath into the old game.

Have you ever thought that's because it's NOT COMPLETE?

Try playing it complete with New Vision and DX:R. Then if you still want to complain about the mods not being good enough, get off the forums. As much as you want to say "OH, SORRY ABOUT HURTING YOUR SPIRITS BUT IT'S ALL POINTLESS", it's very very annoying (not 'hurtful') to have people sign up just to say they don't like what the mods are doing.

[Jonas]

Ah crap, didn't even check the last page. Will definitely want to reply to this:

You know I am one of those people that appreciates video games as an form of art. And so, I appreciate old games.

You know, I appreciate old films too, but I appreciate them more when they've been beautifully mastered onto a DVD than when I have to watch them off of a 20 years old VHS tape where the red colours are bleeding out across every frame

I never complained about the quality of the original Deus Ex release. To be blunt I will say that it was just perfect.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but most people agree that Deus Ex looked a little outdated even back in 2000 when it was released. The art is great but the graphics were never very impressive, and that's to say nothing of the AI. I mean could you really look me in the eyes and tell me you think the combat in Deus Ex is perfectly realistic with a straight face? Still, I think we can all agree it's a great game despite its flaws.

I don't want to hurt any spirits of the makers of this mod, but this "high definition" mod is not really keeping up with the new "high definition" standards. What I am feeling is that DXR will be just as absolete by the time this mod comes out.

Do you realize that DXR are using the HDTP models and textures as well as (as far as I know) the NV textures? Without HDTP's and NV's work, the lighting and physics of DXR would obviously still be great, but eg. a lot of the awesome lighting calculation of the Unreal 2 engine would be wasted on rudimentary models and low-res textures.

And Dave's point covers the rest of your post

[DDL]

OFFTOPIC RANT: Video Games are not Art... They are higher than art. Art usually combines Literature, Music, Performing and Painting/Drawing/Sculpture.. Video Games takes it a step further by actually letting to alter that art form.. something Film, Music, Literature ect ect can't do. This is why I consider it higher, because the viewer can literally change it to their own ideas/experiences. As we move towards more non-linear and freeform games the definition of art moves more and more away because we start to see that its much more fun and more enjoyable than art is anyway. I would rather games not be considered art since when you define it as being art.. you then have these art type assholes that steal it away so that the rest of the world can't embrace it.. This I call the "Cultured" game market, something I would rather NEVER happen since games should be universally acceptable and you shouldn't need a PHD to be able to play a game or figure out its story. Such games belong to the Niche not to the mainstream which dares to actually embrace a utilitarian approach, but in recent years I've noticed we've moved in the wrong direction towards that elitism in the ranks.. FPS games for FPS players only.. RPGs for RPG players only.. We need another Deus Ex , more hybrids ftw.

This has all the hallmarks of shouting at windmills...like Jonas says for films, even actual ON PAPER art has been widely regarded as..well, "art" for hundreds of years, and for SURE has had masses of stupidly overqualified people fanwanking over it at length, but in NO WAY WHATSOEVER has this stopped 'less qualified' people enjoying it.

I mean, if we want a modern gaming example, look at most anything Gillen has ever written: he's the sort of reviewer who would conjure random references to Umberto fucking Eco out of nowhere when writing about..mariokart. Does that make that game any less playable or fun if you don't get the reference? Nooo.

To be honest, I think there's something inherently hilarious about you worrying that elitism will 'take away' your universally acceptable games when you yourself are calling games "Higher than art" and waxing lyrical about their elevated level of transcendance (possible paraphrasing alert).

As for games become more niche-based...no. Just..no. The vast majority of games have ALWAYS been niche based, and this has, with minor exceptions, ALWAYS worked. Attempting to make all games universally acceptable is tantamount to making all games univerally rubbish. If you don't like RTS games, DON'T BUY "Command and Conquer 5: yet more fucking tiberium mining"..it's that simple. Don't buy it and then whine that it fails to contain a dancemat mode.

About the only people I would trust to make a game of 'near-universal appeal' are nintendo, but even then: this IS a niche. The vast majority of 'universal appeal' nintendo games are usually not too competitive ("Oh you're losing? Have the best powerup in the game, four times in a row"), extremely cutesy ("Hah! I killed you! Well, no, I actually made a coin fall out of you and then you sat down and looked dazed before getting up again. Also, you appear to be made out of marshmallows. With HEARTS on them"), and above all, EASY.

A good "universal appeal game" is a party game, you can pick it up when you're with a group of friends (of varying gaming tastes), have a few games and then stop. It's not a panacea, it's a nice stopgap measure.

There will ALWAYS be people who demand MOAR SHOOTING or MOAR TIBERIUM MINING (*shudder*), and for these people, you need niche-based games.

In much the same way that your local borders has a 'horror' section, and a 'fantasy' section, and a 'romance' section and so on.

[Jonas]

Singstar. Now there's a game with universal appeal. That, and The Sims.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

Spore is just as universal. Games that encourage the user to develop their own fun always win in my book.

What I was arguing about the elitism factor was.. Can you just walk into a film festival and suddenly understand what all those stupid artsy and very boring films are about? no.. My worries are that games would head down that path too.. eventually causing what is occurring in Australia right now in regards to Film and Art.. a culture war where no one is actually innovating anything.. its just a bunch of academic idiots that can't come up with anything that the rest of us can enjoy.. hence why Australian film has gone down the shitter because they go for these "artistic" style movies and don't really entertain the rest of the public.. just the minorities.

I think a Niche game can still be a mass market thing. What I am afraid of is things like "designer games" where it becomes a sort of status symbol to play "FPS" or an "RPG".. suddenly it becomes cool. I'm the sort of guy that just plays everything he can grab.

Honestly I haven't been pleased with Nintendo's ideas.. however Smash Bros definitely works.. combining large amounts of separate IPs in the one game is definitely a great strategy.. since this can still have a universal appeal.

I have noticed in recent times there have been "Artistic" games, which make no f'ing sense and ultimately have flopped. I don't see the cultured game market ever taking off.. since the organizations here that are pushing it in Australia are complete morons (which I've had the unpleasantly of actually dealing with.. they put games up in an art gallery display.. its sickening to see these Art types criticizing some of the industries best.)

I'll leave it at that. I did want to say more but its late and I have work in 8 hours time .

[Jonas]

Spore isn't even out yet, it may very well suck as much as The Sims.

First of all, no you cannot necessarily understand art films if you just walk in from the street, but if you go to an art film festival you probably want to get to know art films. If not, what the hell are you doing there? Art films are a niche, and a lot of people enjoy them, so why not let them? It's not like Hollywood are going to stop making blockbusters because 500 people in Melbourne don't want to watch them.

The problem with entertaining "the rest of the public" is that it usually takes huge budgets and loads of special effects. Not a lot of people can muster the budget to make Pirates of the Carribbean 3.

In certain circles, it already IS a status symbol to play RPG's, have you ever visited the RPG Codex?

Artistic games are rarely about making money in the first place, so it doesn't really make sense to describe them as flops. If you put $100 million into a sequel to a huge game and you sell jack shit, that's a flop. If you put together a little Flash game with artistic ambitions at home in your bedroom and only 800 people download it, you can't really call that a flop.

What about Bioshock? That's a game with a clear creative vision and definite artistic ambitions, and I hear it sold pretty well.

[ZylonBane]

Spore isn't even out yet, it may very well suck as much as The Sims.

Wow, Maxis would just HATE that.

[Waruar]

I believe that every product that gives esthetical pleasure to a wide audience can be called art. Therefore art can be movies, theater, music... heck, even rock climbing or motocross. It all depends on the audience.
Then again, art is also about meeting of the minds. You observe a product of someone, experience it and at best you start to wonder, what was going inside the mind of the creator. If this doesn't happen, the experience was likely closer to generic than unique.

In some ways I agree with Mr_Cyberpunk. Videogames can be higher than all the other art forms. I'd use Silent Hill -games as an example. First of all it's art in terms of ambience. The shadows that scare you more than anything else, the creepy sound effects, the grotesque monster design etc. It's also art in terms of music. Just name a game with as staggering musical score as Silent Hill, insanely creepy yet extremely beautiful at the same time.
Click!
The story and symbolism of the series is also pure art, as well as the attention to tiny details.

On the other hand, the Resident Evil series is not art. It's filled with crappy characters, boo -effects, and bad storyline. Yet on the gameplay side, it's very entertaining.

Open-ended gameplay is one thing that may lift games above other art forms. However, it's not the most important thing. I believe that what makes Deus Ex art is not gameplay but rather the story and the interesting characters. The fact that you can change the way the story develops wouldn't really make the game any better, if the character were two-dimensional and the plot bad.
This is one of the biggest problems of Invisible War. Yes, you have more options this time but none of them feel good, or bad. They just are. Nothing feels like anything. I believe this is the wrong direction gaming is heading to: more free roaming, with less emotion.

And about games becoming art for elites, I don't think that's gonna happen. Not as long as games are accused of all the problems of today.

[justanotherfan]

I recently took a class on defining art. Gaming isn't "art" normally, and if it was forced to be, it probably wouldn't be very fun/interesting/entertaining/good. Epater la bourgeoisie would be transformed to epater le playeur, and we don't want that. Compared to music, movies, books, TV, etc, I think that games are far better entertainment; they involve the viewer, the viewer contributes (though usually in a limited, predefined and useless way), and the experience is relatively dynamic rather than a recording (though JC still defects from UNATCO. there is linearity). Beyond that, videogames are a synthesis of music, graphics, science/engineering, writing, even qualities of movies (eg. the DX intro sequence). There's far more potential, and we simply don't see that because of the model used to create new games (work for X# months, release, patch, abandon, repeat). If you consider the movie of the year, or the best selling book to be art, then Deus Ex is art and arguably more artful for it's far greater utilitarian entertainment abilities.

Arguing about what is art will take forever and result in nothing. Preference is better for me, in that I prefer videogames to many books, most music, and all movies so far.

I've just realized that 2D videogames of the 1990's brought Greenberg's flatness of the 60's and 70's to a new level...art made of electrons and photons only... Atari's 2600 games were probably the most like art, being unplayable crap.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

The problem with entertaining "the rest of the public" is that it usually takes huge budgets and loads of special effects. Not a lot of people can muster the budget to make Pirates of the Carribbean 3.

Still it'd be nice if we could get more Equilibrium style movies since its a very high quality budget film (Which won awards for being so cost effective I recall since it still fitted the budget film categories).

It's not like Hollywood are going to stop making blockbusters because 500 people in Melbourne don't want to watch them.

You've obviously never been to Melbourne.. its all Designer labels and Art organizations.. Adelaide is just as bad though in terms of "Culture".. Which frankly annoys the hell out of me since in 10 years the entire city has turned Deconstructivist.. which is a crap art style and I prefer the Victorian period buildings that existed prior to demolishing them. I'm concerned the video game industry is headed down a similar path.. I miss the old days to tell you the truth.. these days its all MMOs and "Spiritual Successors".. I'm truly sick of it. Make games that break the rules of game development instead of producing the same crap over and over.

I think Jonas summarized my point about the film festival thing nicely. What the hell are you doing there. At the same time I am asking WHY do people watch this crap? it doesn't interest me, it just makes me feel like I don't belong and thats where I am worried because video games give these artists a chance to reach much wider demographics.

Dare I say "EMO the Game"? That's my fear right there.. I mean seriously we don't want shit like that coming in since it's more likely to piss the entire gamer demographics off and ultimately exclude us all if it ended up successful (since it'd no doubt start a trend.. which EA would most likely buy into) I know I just gave everyone nightmares

[DaveW]

Just going to stick my head in, I absolutely hate modern art and appreciaters of such art. It does my head in how someone can speak for hours about the meanings of two different coloured cubes or a bunch of paint randomly splattered across a page. A 5 year old could do that, but since the author calls it art suddenly it's worth thousands!

I wouldn't call games art. It's entertainment, just like most films. There's "Art-like" films, but still, far more entertainment than anything.

[EER]

Spore isn't even out yet, it may very well suck as much as The Sims.

Wow, Maxis would just HATE that.

Especially if it would be an economic failure of the same magnitude as the sims...

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

Seems like me and snipa are on the same level. good .

Would you pay $10,000 for just a game? No you wouldn't.. yet people pay that exact amount for crap that looks like a child has wiped its own ass with it.

This form of misleading and over valuing of products is why I would rather the cultured gamers out there STFU and die already. We don't need their methods or want their methods to rub off on the industry.

I'd like to make the reference to Graphic Novels for instance.. there was a time where the common comic book was considered a child thing by the art world.. once comic books were embraced by the art world.. all hell broke loose and you started seeing people paying outrageous prices for limited edition comics.

Games that never happens to. You can buy a copy of Sam and Max for $5! in its original box.. mint condition. If the art world embraces them.. BOOM $200+. However I have seen Secret of Mana for SNES selling for upwards of $200, so yeah it might still happen. But then I mean we have emulators so that'd bring the demand down quite a bit. So long as the game companies keep their games in print.. then we'll never see this happen. and so long as someone out there has bothered to at least pirate the game then we will never have this problem! this is why Backing up games should be our RIGHT as consumers.

Steam may well be the future and answer to all this.. assuming the mark up scams don't keep happening. (eg COD4)