A question/suggestion + some concerns

[Kaucukovnik]

First off: thank you all for doing this stuff for our beloved game. The improvements on environment are already amazing with the years old release.

But I have a question. Can I install it without the new Gunther? He's very well done, except he isn't Gunther anymore. I seriously didn't recognize him looking at the screen shot for the first time. He's got all the detail, but not the feel. For some prequel with younger Gunther, he'd be awesome though.
So, is there a way to install only the new objects/weapons art?

And please, make the final installer modular. I may not like the new Gunther, but for example both Dentons and Walton Simons seem to be a mandatory install once (if?) the full version comes.


And to my concerns. I do not plan on another "damn, release the thing already" thread, but I wanted to give some insight on what's been happening around the delayed release.

I think many have simply crossed the proverbial thin line between love and hate. Some people can take this long wait (knowing the awesome models DO exist, for years) as "We are playing the game like this, fuck you! Maybe if you lick our arses for long enough you might get it too." Who can really blame them? Yopu certainly don't give evidence for the opposite.
No matter how hard work you actually do, the way you present it you are being a tease. No wonder someone gets angry. I'm among those who are planning to play DX again, but knowing there is a JC who doesn't look like a lab baboon makes playing the original a bit painful. And that's all your unreleased models have done so far.
I'm not blaming you for doing voluntary work. Just try to feel with your fans sometimes.

And your approach to criticism is weird too. Basically it's like that: "Don't like? Make yourself a better one." Everyone who doesn't say what I do in the last paragraph gets shunned/banned. You have the right to do so, but don't be surprised by more negative reaction. And you are rude even to people who mean your good. The name HDTCP is a huge understatement, since you are adding whole new MODELS with textures, yet the "rename" topic was called stupid or whatnot.
The guy who said you missed the best time (DX:HR release) was right. That doesn't make your mod worse, but definitely less people are going to play it.
You just seem to dismiss anyone who says anything negative, no matter the context. Don't be so touchy, this is the internet after all.

Don't get annoyed by trolls like me, in fact we are supporters too, we just got tired waiting (what a surprise ). Don't wait for some final touches that may never come, wouldn't be the first project killed by overambition and strive for perfection. Please, finish the thing and make it modular or give us instructions to switch stuff around, those purists among us will be grateful.
And I don't think that the old models will look too ridiculous next to the new ones, since you haven't gone overboard with hi-res and next-gen like many modders tend to do.

*fingers crossed*

[Jonas]

Yeah there'll be a no-characters option.

[G-Flex]

Speaking as someone who's done at least a little bit of modding, I have to say that I'm not sure why the mod itself isn't modular with respect to other mods. People shouldn't have to choose between a texture/model replacer and an unofficial patch or gameplay mod, but as far as I know, using both isn't possible with HDTP without the kind of bizarre, hacky, tedious to code, unreliable garbage that Shifter has to do (and my mod, by extension). I'm not sure if there's some particular reason for this, or if I'm mistaken, but it seems fairly strange to me that people should have to make the choice between getting bugs fixed/their game modded or improved, and updating textures and character models.

[Salk]

I am not sure I understand, G-Flex but when I downloaded your patch it says that it's fully HDTP compatible?

And what about New Vision? Is that also compatible?

[G-Flex]

I am not sure I understand, G-Flex but when I downloaded your patch it says that it's fully HDTP compatible?

Yes, through incredibly painstaking methods that aren't particularly easy to support, which were implemented in Shifter and which I copied over. The only reason it's HDTP-compatible at all is because every single object class that has a corresponding HDTP model/texture is given a function to look for the HDTP version of that model/texture and set its own model/texture to that instead of the default. This requires the mod author to not only engage in tedious editing of very many script files (I just swiped it from Shifter and it was still easily the most painstaking thing I had to do for my mod), but it also requires the author to know exactly which objects have HDTP textures/models and what those textures/models are called. If HDTP changes, for example, my mod and Shifter aren't guaranteed to work right or use any new additions. And if a mod author doesn't do these things at all, there is no compatibility.

In essence, I don't see why HDTP can't have a simpler version that just replaces the game's default meshes/skins so that none of that is necessary and it could be compatible with all gameplay mods. Maybe there's some particular reason why this isn't plausible, but I'm a little skeptical.

And what about New Vision? Is that also compatible?

I believe New Vision just replaces assets and doesn't touch the map or script files. In fact, judging by their install instructions video, all you do is plop in a new textures folder and then edit a line in your game's .ini file so that the game knows where to load them from. So yeah, it should be compatible with my mod and any other mod that doesn't mess with environmental textures. If it works, or there are problems, I'd be glad to be made aware, though!

[Jonas]

As I understand it, HDTP is made by a lot of people, and almost none of them were familiar with Deus Ex on a technical level. The people who are now in charge of getting everything implemented and working have to fix a lot of little problems and mistakes that the content producers made.

Secondly, HDTP uses more textures for each model. This is 1) so they can have visible weapon mods and 2) so they can squeeze more pixels onto each object without breaking the engine. In order to make this work, the particular texture assignments for each model needs to be coded into the classes in question, and that's why they can't just override the items and models. For reference, HDTP Release 1 pretty much worked like you describe because the decoration objects were simpler to replace (HDTP was compatible with TNM out of the box with no extra work) - almost all the problems are introduced by the items (mainly the weapons with their visible weapon mods).

Maybe I've missed something obvious and DDL will jump in and set the record straight.

[DDL]

Jonas basically nailed it: HDTP has to be implemented 'badly' because the unreal engine (and deus ex by extension) is coded badly for this sort of thing.

Every character, decoration, weapon etc has explicit hard-coded references to the relevant mesh: there's no way we can simply make an entirely new package of weapons and so on "while keeping the model/texture filenames identical so vanilla DX uses them automatically" because they won't behave the same. And we can't add any new code (like the code for allowing weapon mods to be visible). And any level textures that might use deco textures (like bookends being used as lights, or alarmlights being used as coronas) would use the newer textures in a potentially inappropriate fashion. And it would totally fuck with mods like zodiac, which might use "same mesh, different texture" because now it would be applying textures intended for the original models to HDTP models. Badness.

The way we did it has far fewer mod-related issues, at least for mods that aren't constantly recoding the core package.

So, a better question might almost be "why does everyone always insist on recoding the whole of deusex.u all the damn time?"

"Want to fix a minor bug? -RECOMPILE THE ENTIRE CORE CODE PACK!"
"Want to fix another one? -SEE ABOVE!"

Again you might argue that it's a lot easier to "recompile the entirety of the core code" than it is to arrange things such that "seamless swapping in of 'bugfixed' replacement classes happens"...at which point I'd take a sip of Jack, lean back, put my arms behind my head and say "aaahhh, see: now you're getting it."

In essence, the unreal engine's class-based package system is not optimal for modding of the type we're doing. An engine where individual elements could be dissected out and altered without forcing a full recompile would be far nicer, but them's the breaks.

[G-Flex]

So, a better question might almost be "why does everyone always insist on recoding the whole of deusex.u all the damn time?"

"Want to fix a minor bug? -RECOMPILE THE ENTIRE CORE CODE PACK!"
"Want to fix another one? -SEE ABOVE!"

I don't see why this is a better question, really. Deusex.u is altered because... those are the scripts being altered, plainly and simply. If I'm fixing bugs in the DeusEx package, I'm going to recompile the DeusEx package. There's nothing terribly wrong or even odd about that. I'm recompiling the package containing the scripts that are being altered and fixed up. Unless you expect every single class file to have its own package, there's no getting around that.

Again you might argue that it's a lot easier to "recompile the entirety of the core code" than it is to arrange things such that "seamless swapping in of 'bugfixed' replacement classes happens"...at which point I'd take a sip of Jack, lean back, put my arms behind my head and say "aaahhh, see: now you're getting it."

I'm not even sure "easier" would be the right word. I'm not even sure a thing like that would be possible. The entire game would have to effectively be run from a different, fixed-up version of the DeusEx package instead of the DeusEx package itself if you want to leave the DeusEx package alone; you're having to leaving the DeusEx package along, so you can't even put references in it to the new one! So basically, you wind up in the exact same boat, using a third-party package instead of the default to serve the exact same purpose, making HDTP's job no easier anyway. Nothing would even be solved. I seriously just have no idea how to alter so much of the main codebase without, you know, actually recompiling that codebase. What alternative is there? Say I make a fix to DeusExPlayer. You're suggesting that, what, I implement it as a fixed-up version of the same class but in a different package? Then other scripts that refer to DeusExPlayer need to point to that new class, meaning they have to be in the new package as well since I'm not editing the DeusEx package... and so on, with everything from weapon classes to mission scripts.



At any rate, I'll just have to take your word for it that the way the meshes/textures work preclude them from functioning properly if you just drop-and-replace them. I don't know enough about it to judge for myself, but if that's the case, then it's certainly understandable, although in that case I'd have to wonder why Shifter's method for compatibility works... but I didn't really take a hard look at it either.

[DDL]

GUH.

Ok.

What you're basically saying is "I just don't see how the fuck you expect me to do what I do without recoding deusex.u", and that, my good sir, is EXACTLY MY POINT. You can't do it, I can't do it.

There is basically no way round it. Ok, yes, I actually do (for my own mod) replace every last motherfucking class with my own custom versions, at runtime, purely so I don't mess with deusex.u, but that's hardly a solution ANYWAY, since if someone were to combine my stuff with, say, shifter, it wouldn't work anyway since all my stuff inherits properties from vanilla dx, not shifter dx. So it's doable, simply awkward and not really a solution. Totally wouldn't work for HDTP, too.

SO. If you were to look at how shifter does it, it's pretty much along the lines of "look for this HDTP mesh, if you find it, use these predefined texture setting and all this prearranged code, if you don't, use all this predefined vanilla DX code." It's still a huge undertaking, and it still involves recoding deusex.u, since shifter is a recoded deusex.u.

The only difference in implementation is that the HDTP deusex.u assumes HDTP meshes and textures are present (since otherwise what the fuck), whereas shifter does not.

I'll just have to take your word for it that the way the meshes/textures work preclude them from functioning properly if you just drop-and-replace them

As an example, here's vanilla gunther's textures:

Code: Select all

     MultiSkins(0)=Texture'DeusExCharacters.Skins.GuntherHermannTex1'
     MultiSkins(1)=Texture'DeusExCharacters.Skins.PantsTex9'
     MultiSkins(2)=Texture'DeusExCharacters.Skins.GuntherHermannTex0'
     MultiSkins(3)=Texture'DeusExCharacters.Skins.GuntherHermannTex0'
     MultiSkins(4)=Texture'DeusExItems.Skins.PinkMaskTex'
     MultiSkins(5)=Texture'DeusExItems.Skins.GrayMaskTex'
     MultiSkins(6)=Texture'DeusExItems.Skins.BlackMaskTex'
     MultiSkins(7)=Texture'DeusExItems.Skins.BlackMaskTex'

Note, specific texture for multiskins[0], that's gunther's chest. Both 2 and 3 are the face/hands, and are the same texture. All the rest are generic textures that are used on various other characters, decos and level textures.

Here's HDTP gunther's defprops:

Code: Select all

	 MultiSkins(1)=Texture'HDTPCharacters.skins.HDTPGuntherTex1'
	 MultiSkins(2)=Texture'HDTPCharacters.skins.HDTPGuntherTex2'
	 MultiSkins(3)=Texture'HDTPCharacters.skins.HDTPGuntherTex3'
	 MultiSkins(4)=Texture'HDTPCharacters.skins.HDTPGuntherTex4'
	 MultiSkins(5)=Texture'HDTPCharacters.skins.HDTPGuntherTex5'
	 MultiSkins(6)=Texture'HDTPCharacters.skins.HDTPGuntherTex6'
	 MultiSkins(7)=Texture'HDTPCharacters.skins.HDTPGuntherTex7'

Every texture is unique to gunther, allowing us to pack fucktons more detail in. If we'd restricted ourselves to making a drag/drop model replacement, we'd have to
A) restrict the UVmappers/texturers/modellers to 2 textures rather than 7 or 8,
B) make sure those textures are mapped to the same matIDs on the model (not actually trivial),
C) make sure pantstex9 remained suitably generic so as not to affect any other models that use that texture
D) actually model on and uvmap the helmet and visor that gunther's mesh has but doesn't use, because now we've simply made a new GM_DressShirt_B, a mesh which is actually used in several other classes, all of which would now look like gunther.

This last point cannot be stressed enough. Remember: the meshes in DX were reused ALL OVER THE SHOP. GM_Trench, the mesh so beloved of paul and JC, is used for everyone from max chen to joseph fucking manderley. We make a new mesh that looks like a high def JC, and call it GM_trench so as not to need recoding of deusex.u, and suddenly WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MANDERLEY.

So yeah: we recode deusex.u.

[Jonas]

That's a great point actually. Your problem, G-Flex, is that you're working on a mod that has to mess with DeusEx.u, because doing it any other way would be a ridiculous amount of tedious work. HDTP is also a mod that has to mess with DeusEx.u, because doing it any other way would be a ridiculous amount of tedious work. You're complaining that HDTP didn't put in the tedious work because it would've saved you from doing the tedious work. Shifter works because Yuki just... put in the tedious work.

Meanwhile, TNM is a different sort of mod that doesn't have to mess with DeusEx.u because it can do what it does in another way that's not a ridiculous amount of tedious work, so we dodged most of the bullets on that one - we still need to fix up a lot of things to make our shit work with HDTP's shit, but it could be worse.

In other words: only one of you gets to not put in the ridiculous amount of tedious work. HDTP chose not to, so you can either accept your lot in life and put in the ridiculous amount of tedious work, or you can accept that your mod won't be HDTP compatible.

It's a shitty situation, but you can't blame HDTP for it. Blame the way the Unreal engine is set up to handle assets.

[Salk]

Well, to my profane eyes it seems like there isn't really a fair solution available.

What I seem to understand is that if Gflex won't "put in the ridiculous amount of tedious work", his patch/mod wont' be compatible with the upcoming HDTP modification.

And at that point we'll have to make a choice, which is certainly not what I was hoping for.

But thanks for this discussion. I think it was needed.

[G-Flex]

GUH.What you're basically saying is "I just don't see how the fuck you expect me to do what I do without recoding deusex.u", and that, my good sir, is EXACTLY MY POINT. You can't do it, I can't do it.

Yeah. My apologies, I was a little sleep-deprived when I wrote that so I think I missed your point a bit much.

As an example, here's vanilla gunther's textures:

[stuff]

Yeah, I forgot to properly take into consideration things like the game (by default) reusing textures a lot more than any texture replacement/update project would. I appreciate the explanation. Does this apply as much to world/object textures? I assume it probably does, at least to some significant degree.

I generally enjoy modding Deus Ex, because it's just a bunch of C++-like script that I can screw around with in essentially whatever way I please, which is great for the kind of stuff I do. You've definitely brought up some interesting limitations, though, and I see your point.

Well, to my profane eyes it seems like there isn't really a fair solution available.

What I seem to understand is that if Gflex won't "put in the ridiculous amount of tedious work", his patch/mod wont' be compatible with the upcoming HDTP modification.

And at that point we'll have to make a choice, which is certainly not what I was hoping for.

That's more or less my concern. As far as I can tell, my mod and Shifter should be just fine with HDTP, fortunately... as long as nothing about HDTP changes, at least! But yeah, no real fair solution.

[Salk]

As far as I can tell, my mod and Shifter should be just fine with HDTP, fortunately... as long as nothing about HDTP changes, at least! But yeah, no real fair solution.

Well, we people have been waiting (and still are) for years for a "changed" version of HDTP, namely a full release.

Do you mean that both Shifter and Human Renovation are compatible with the upcoming version or that the compatibility is limited to the "demo" version released many years ago?

[G-Flex]

My mod's compatible with whatever Shifter's compatible with, so I can't comment on it much because I didn't do any of the hard work or figure any of it out. I figure it's only compatible with whatever's already out there, but I don't want to assume anything. You'd really have to ask Y|yukichigai.

[flib]

If the only modifications that HDTP is making to DeusEx.u are mesh and texture changes, couldn't it all be done in a separate script that goes through and changes those properties dynamically?
Would this put a significantly increased strain on resources? Is this the kind of thing that would be a lot of tedious work?

If you'd need a way to load the script, you could include a DeusEx.u with minimal changes to load it and provide that code for other mods to implement to easily make them "HDTP-ready."